From:   shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Tuesday, November 01, 2011 5:33:08 PM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   SPAM-MED: Re: Re: [september17discuss] Greek government on verge of collapse over austerity referendum
 

yeah grim there is a lot about the fed by ron paul--and even more in

the right wing news...

 

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:18 PM, grimwomyn <grimwomyn@gmail.com> wrote:

> speaking of the Fed, has everyone had a chance to see

> this? https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=305158809511132

>

> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:02 PM, <jemcgloin@verizon.net> wrote:

>>

>> I don't have time to finish the article, but I can tell you tht there is

>> plenty of cash, its just in the wrong hands (the FED has "lent" global banks

>> an extra $2trillion, but they are not lending it).  Also since much of the

>> world's cash is running to US treasury bonds for safety, the US can borrow

>> for almost 0% interest right now.  So there is money to be had in order to

>> invest in infrastructure and jobs.

>>

>> Trying to grow an economy already at full capacity by borrowing to

>> increase spending only creates inflation, but we are no where near full

>> capacity.  Consumers have pulled back, businesses have pulled back, and the

>> government response has been to pull back also.  Now all three legs of the

>> stool are shorter and everyone is waiting for someone else to start spending

>> again.  This is the classic Keynesian situation.  It is said that keynesian

>> spending didn't work during the great depression didn't really work, or

>> Obama's stimulus either, but the problem was both were way to small.

>>

>> WWII was proof the Keynes was right.  It was the biggest spending program

>> in the history of the US, running the debt to GDP ratio higher than ever

>> before or since, and it increased the economy to way bigger than it was

>> before.  And when it was over, we reconstructed Europe and Japan, and had a

>> GI bill and other government spending.  It was paid off by 90% taxes on the

>> biggest earners, and the economy did much better than it is doing now.

>>

>> On 11/01/11, shaista husain<shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Here is another critique of Keynesianism by Paul Mattick--ie.

>> borrowing money and our problems today--:

>> "There is no repetition in history—that’s why you can’t learn from the

>> past—so this is an absolutely unique situation: a major depression,

>> but one in which the Keynesian apparatus is no longer available

>> because the money has already been spent. The US has 14 trillion

>> dollars in national debt. So now they just don’t know what to do."

>>

>> http://www.brooklynrail.org/2011/06/express/the-economic-crisis-in-fact-and-fictionpaul-mattick-with-john-clegg-and-aaron-benanav

>>

>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:37 PM, <rj@riseup.net> wrote:

>> > Immanuel Wallerstein gives a pretty good explanation as to why social

>> > democracy, what was called the New Deal in the US, won't be a viable way

>> > forward anymore. It can be found here (and pasted in below):

>> > http://www.iwallerstein.com/socialdemocratic-illusion

>> >

>> > The financial crisis has become an economic crisis, which is now a

>> > political crisis in Greece... and increasingly so even here in the US.

>> > It's exciting that the neoliberal order is falling but it's also scary

>> > because we need to have effective and liberatory economic and political

>> > responses, what some might call "alternatives".

>> >

>> > Authoritarian forces will be much more likely to succeed in setting the

>> > new rules of the game if we fail to find ways to meet our own needs in

>> > just, democratic and ecologically sustainable ways. As far away as it

>> > may

>> > seem, I don't think it could hurt in these times for us to get serious

>> > about what it might mean to win... and to think through what we need to

>> > do

>> > today, next week, and next year to be in a position to collectively

>> > control our own lives and destinies. A lot of us are already doing this,

>> > and it also feels important to remind us of that given the crisis of

>> > alternatives facing even the most democratic forces in Greece right now.

>> >

>> > -RJ

>> >

>> > Immanuel Wallerstein » Commentaries

>> > The Social-Democratic Illusion

>> > Commentary No. 313, September 15, 2011

>> >

>> > Social-democracy had its apogee in the period 1945 to the late 1960s. At

>> > that time, it represented an ideology and a movement that stood for the

>> > use of state resources to ensure some redistribution to the majority of

>> > the population in various concrete ways: expansion of educational and

>> > health facilities; guarantees of lifelong income levels by programs to

>> > support the needs of the non-”wage-employed” groups, particularly

>> > children

>> > and seniors; and programs to minimize unemployment. Social-democracy

>> > promised an ever-better future for future generations, a sort of

>> > permanent

>> > rising level of national and family incomes. This was called the welfare

>> > state. It was an ideology that reflected the view that capitalism could

>> > be

>> > “reformed” and acquire a more human face.

>> >

>> > The Social-Democrats were most powerful in western Europe, Great

>> > Britain,

>> > Australia and New Zealand, Canada, and the United States (where they

>> > were

>> > called New Deal Democrats) – in short, in the wealthy countries of the

>> > world-system, those that constituted what might be called the

>> > pan-European

>> > world. They were so successful that their right-of-center opponents also

>> > endorsed the concept of the welfare state, trying merely to reduce its

>> > costs and extent. In the rest of the world, the states tried to jump

>> > onto

>> > this bandwagon by projects of national “development.”

>> >

>> > Social-democracy was a highly successful program during this period. It

>> > was sustained by two realities of the times: the incredible expansion of

>> > the world-economy, which created the resources that made the

>> > redistribution possible; and United States hegemony in the world-system,

>> > which ensured the relative stability of the world-system, and especially

>> > the absence of serious violence within this wealthy zone.

>> >

>> > This rosy picture did not last. The two realities came to an end. The

>> > world-economy stopped expanding and entered into a long stagnation, in

>> > which we are still living; and the United States began its long, if

>> > slow,

>> > decline as a hegemonic power. Both new realities have accelerated

>> > considerably in the twenty-first century.

>> >

>> > The new era beginning in the 1970s saw the end of the world centrist

>> > consensus on the virtues of the welfare state and state-managed

>> > “development.” It was replaced by a new, more rightwing ideology, called

>> > variously neo-liberalism or the Washington Consensus, which preached the

>> > merits of reliance on markets rather than on governments. This program

>> > was

>> > said to be based on a supposedly new reality of “globalization” to which

>> > “there was no alternative.”

>> >

>> > Implementing neo-liberal programs seemed to maintain rising levels of

>> > “growth” on stock markets but at the same time led to rising worldwide

>> > levels of indebtedness, unemployment, and lower real income levels for

>> > the

>> > vast majority of the world’s populations. Nonetheless, the parties that

>> > had been the mainstays of the left-of-center social-democratic programs

>> > moved steadily to the right, eschewing or playing down support for the

>> > welfare state and accepting that the role of reformist governments had

>> > to

>> > be reduced considerably.

>> >

>> > While the negative effects on the majority of the populations were felt

>> > even within the wealthy pan-European world, they were felt even more

>> > acutely in the rest of the world. What were their governments to do?

>> > They

>> > began to take advantage of the relative economic and geopolitical

>> > decline

>> > of the United States (and more widely of the pan-European world) by

>> > focusing on their own national “development.” They used the power of

>> > their

>> > state apparatuses and their overall lower costs of production to become

>> > “emerging” nations. The more “left” their verbiage and even their

>> > political commitment, the more they were determined to “develop.”

>> >

>> > Will this work for them as it had once worked for the pan-European world

>> > in the post-1945 period? It is far from obvious that it can, despite the

>> > remarkable “growth” rates of some of these countries – particularly, the

>> > so-called BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, China) – in the last five to ten

>> > years. For there are some serious differences between the current state

>> > of

>> > the world-system and that of the immediate post-1945 period.

>> >

>> > One, the real cost levels of production, despite neoliberal efforts to

>> > reduce them, are in fact now considerably higher than they were in the

>> > post-1945 period, and threaten the real possibilities of capital

>> > accumulation. This makes capitalism as a system less attractive to

>> > capitalists, the most perceptive of whom are searching for alternative

>> > ways to secure their privileges.

>> >

>> > Two, the ability of the emerging nations to increase in the short run

>> > their acquisition of wealth has put a great strain on the availability

>> > of

>> > resources to provide their needs. It therefore has created an

>> > ever-growing

>> > race for land acquisition, water, food, and energy resources, which is

>> > not

>> > only leading to fierce struggles but is in turn also reducing the

>> > worldwide ability of capitalists to accumulate capital.

>> >

>> > Three, the enormous expansion of capitalist production has created at

>> > last

>> > a serious strain on the world’s ecology, such that the world has entered

>> > into a climate crisis, whose consequences threaten the quality of life

>> > throughout the world. It has also fostered a movement for reconsidering

>> > fundamentally the virtues of “growth” and “development” as economic

>> > objectives. This growing demand for a different “civilizational”

>> > perspective is what is being called in Latin America the movement for

>> > “buen vivir” (a liveable world).

>> >

>> > Four, the demands of subordinate groups for a real degree of

>> > participation

>> > in the decision-making processes of the world has come to be directed

>> > not

>> > only at “capitalists” but also at the “left” governments that are

>> > promoting national “development.”

>> >

>> > Fifth, the combination of all these factors, plus the visible decline of

>> > the erstwhile hegemonic power, has created a climate of constant and

>> > radical fluctuations in both the world-economy and the geopolitical

>> > situation, which has had the result of paralyzing both the world’s

>> > entrepreneurs and the world’s governments. The degree of uncertainty –

>> > not

>> > only long-term but also the very short-term – has escalated markedly,

>> > and

>> > with it the real level of violence.

>> >

>> > The social-democratic solution has become an illusion. The question is

>> > what will replace it for the vast majority of the world’s populations.

>> >

>> >> "unpopular austerity measures"

>> >>

>> >> This does not seem like "New Deal" measures to me. This seems like the

>> >> opposite of that, and the opposite of what Keynes would prescribe

>> >> during

>> >> an

>> >> economic slowdown. Is there something not in the article I'm missing?

>> >>

>> >> --glj

>> >>

>> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:12 PM, shaista husain

>> >> <shaistahusain@gmail.com>wrote:

>> >>

>> >>> Thanks for posting this,

>> >>> The social democratic leadership PASOK party have sold out to the

>> >>> Troika and Greece really is on the brink of a revolution--it is also

>> >>> the weakest link in Europe. It is important that we understand why

>> >>> social democracy and why this Third Party has not been able to

>> >>> implement reform and structural changes for the people. Greece poses

>> >>> an interesting lesson--and those of us who think similar keynesian

>> >>> "New Deal" steps are a solution to our problem (*yes anything is

>> >>> better than what we have now*!!!!) but these "New Deal" policies are

>> >>> being rejected by the Greek workers, as these measures have not been

>> >>> able solve the economic crisis. What are the people of Greece

>> >>> demanding?

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Doug Singsen <dougsingsen@gmail.com>

>> >>> wrote:

>> >>> >

>> >>>

>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/world/europe/markets-tumble-as-greece-plans-referendum-on-latest-europe-aid-deal.html?_r=1&hp

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Government in Greece Nears Collapse Over Referendum

>> >>> >

>> >>> > By NIKI KITSANTONIS and RACHEL DONADIO

>> >>> >

>> >>> > ATHENS — The Greek government was plunged into chaos on Tuesday and

>> >>> faced an

>> >>> > imminent collapse, as lawmakers rebelled against Prime Minister

>> >>> > George

>> >>> > Papandreou’s surprise call for a popular referendum on a new debt

>> >>> > deal

>> >>> with

>> >>> > Greece’s foreign lenders.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Power company customers lined up in Athens on Monday to ask about a

>> >>> new

>> >>> tax.

>> >>> > President George A. Papandreou’s surprise promise of a vote on

>> >>> austerity

>> >>> > measures threatens a deal reached to ease the European debt crisis.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Such a collapse would not only render the referendum plan moot, it

>> >>> would

>> >>> > likely scuttle — or at least delay — the debt deal that was agreed

>> >>> > on

>> >>> in

>> >>> > Brussels last week, putting Greece on a fast track to default and

>> >>> possible

>> >>> > exit from the monetary union of countries sharing the euro currency.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Analysts said that Mr. Papandreou’s call for a referendum was a last

>> >>> resort,

>> >>> > meant to gain broader political support for the unpopular austerity

>> >>> measures

>> >>> > in the deal without forcing early elections that would only worsen

>> >>> > the

>> >>> > country’s political and economic turmoil.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > But after weeks of mounting pressure, one Socialist lawmaker quit

>> >>> > the

>> >>> party

>> >>> > to become an independent, reducing Mr. Papandreou’s majority to 152

>> >>> seats

>> >>> > out of 300 in Parliament, and another six Socialists wrote a letter

>> >>> calling

>> >>> > on Mr. Papandreou to resign and schedule early elections for a new

>> >>> > government with greater political legitimacy. Together, the

>> >>> developments

>> >>> > made it doubtful whether his government would survive a confidence

>> >>> vote

>> >>> > planned for Friday.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Meanwhile, the center-right opposition New Democracy party on

>> >>> > Tuesday

>> >>> > stepped up its calls for early elections. Its leader, Antonis

>> >>> > Samaras,

>> >>> has

>> >>> > opposed most of the austerity measures the government accepted in

>> >>> exchange

>> >>> > for foreign financial aid. Mr. Samaras has said that if he were in

>> >>> power, he

>> >>> > would try to renegotiate the terms of Greece’s arrangement with its

>> >>> > principal foreign lenders, known as the troika: the European Union,

>> >>> the

>> >>> > European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > “Mr. Papandreou, in his effort to save himself, has presented a

>> >>> divisive

>> >>> and

>> >>> > extortionate dilemma,” Mr. Samaras said on Tuesday. “New Democracy

>> >>> > is

>> >>> > determined to avert, at all costs, such reckless adventurism.”

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Mr. Samaras declined to say whether he would ask his 85 members of

>> >>> > Parliament to resign, a move that would lead to the dissolution of

>> >>> > Parliament and a snap election. The next general election was not

>> >>> > due

>> >>> until

>> >>> > 2013, when the Socialists’ four-year-term expires. Mr. Samaras is

>> >>> expected

>> >>> > to clarify his stance at a meeting of his party’s parliamentary

>> >>> > group

>> >>> on

>> >>> > Wednesday.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > European leaders have repeatedly dismissed Mr. Samaras’s notion of

>> >>> > renegotiating Greece’s deal with its lenders, saying that trying to

>> >>> > do

>> >>> so

>> >>> > would be damaging and would throw away months of work on a plan to

>> >>> keep

>> >>> > Greece from defaulting.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Mr. Papandreou’s announcement of a referendum took Greek lawmakers

>> >>> > by

>> >>> > surprise, just a s it did political leaders and investors across

>> >>> Europe.

>> >>> On

>> >>> > Tuesday, the state television channel Net reported that even the

>> >>> finance

>> >>> > minister, Evangelos Venizelos, had not been informed in advance

>> >>> > about

>> >>> the

>> >>> > referendum, although he was aware of plans for a confidence vote.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Mr. Venizelos was taken to a hospital Tuesday morning, complaining

>> >>> > of

>> >>> > stomach pain. Doctors said he had an inflamed appendix. He is the

>> >>> latest

>> >>> in

>> >>> > a string of governing party officials to be rushed to hospitals in

>> >>> recent

>> >>> > weeks. One Greek negotiator had a heart attack in Brussels last

>> >>> > week.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > On Tuesday, European leaders said the deal reached last week to

>> >>> > write

>> >>> down

>> >>> > 50 percent of some Greek debt was the best available way to build a

>> >>> > financial “firewall” that would keep Greece’s troubles from causing

>> >>> > a

>> >>> > damaging run on other shaky European economies like that of Italy.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > The political instability in Greece has long dismayed European

>> >>> officials. In

>> >>> > a statement, the president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel

>> >>> Barroso,

>> >>> > and the president of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, said

>> >>> that

>> >>> > Europe’s plans to protect other vulnerable members were “more

>> >>> necessary

>> >>> than

>> >>> > ever, without delay.”

>> >>> >

>> >>> > “We are convinced that this agreement is the best for Greece,” they

>> >>> added.

>> >>> > “We fully trust that Greece will honor the commitments undertaken in

>> >>> > relation to the euro area and the international community.”

>> >>> >

>> >>> > In Greece, Mr. Papandreou’s referendum proposal seemed to be his

>> >>> > last,

>> >>> best

>> >>> > hope. His political capital has dried up, and he faces intense anger

>> >>> from

>> >>> > voters who have been squeezed to the breaking point by the austerity

>> >>> > measures demanded by Greece’s foreign lenders.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > “Papandreou could not take more political punishment,” said George

>> >>> Kirsos, a

>> >>> > political analyst and the owner of the Athens City Paper. “We have a

>> >>> strange

>> >>> > situation: Everyone’s cursing the government, and everyone expects

>> >>> > the

>> >>> > government to do the job by itself — to reorganize the economy, to

>> >>> > cut

>> >>> the

>> >>> > deficit, to make a deal with the Germans — but at the same time,

>> >>> nobody

>> >>> > helps him.”

>> >>> >

>> >>> > “All parties and all media criticize the government,” Mr. Kirstos

>> >>> added.

>> >>> “So

>> >>> > Papandreou, in a sense, tried his best to do the referendum to force

>> >>> the

>> >>> > parties, the media and the citizens to undertake their own

>> >>> responsibility.

>> >>> > The referendum is a yes or no issue: Either you are in favor, or you

>> >>> decide

>> >>> > that you say goodbye to the euro zone.”

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Charged by Europe with dismantling the welfare state they helped

>> >>> create,

>> >>> > many of Mr. Papandreou’s Socialist members of Parliament feel they

>> >>> > too

>> >>> have

>> >>> > reached their breaking points.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Vasso Papandreou, a prominent member of parliament and a former

>> >>> minister

>> >>> who

>> >>> > is not related to the prime minister, called on Greek President

>> >>> Karolos

>> >>> > Papoulias to order the formation of a unity government ahead of

>> >>> > early

>> >>> > general elections. “Bankruptcy is imminent,” she said. Earlier this

>> >>> month,

>> >>> > Ms. Papandreou said she would vote for a new raft of austerity

>> >>> measures,

>> >>> but

>> >>> > that it would be “the last time” she supported the government

>> >>> > unconditionally.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > “The current government has none of these necessary prerequisites.

>> >>> Today’s

>> >>> > government policy is asphyxiating. Day by day the country is

>> >>> experiencing

>> >>> > collapse, lawlessness and absence of government,” they added.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > If Mr. Papandreou’s government falls, it would not be the first one

>> >>> > in

>> >>> > Europe to be toppled by the austerity demanded by European debt

>> >>> relief.

>> >>> In

>> >>> > Ireland and Portuga,l governments that accepted bailouts from the

>> >>> European

>> >>> > Union and the International Monetary Fund fell, and last month the

>> >>> Slovakian

>> >>> > government fell over whether to participate in the European Union’s

>> >>> rescue

>> >>> > package.

>> >>> >

>> >>> > Niki Kitsantonis reported from Athens and Rachel Donadio from Rome.

>> >>> Stephen

>> >>> > Castle contributed reporting from Brussels.

>> >>>

>> >>

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>

>

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