From:   shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Thursday, November 03, 2011 10:23:32 AM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   SPAM-MED: Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the demographics of OWS,
 

no its my sarcasm you don't like--i don't care -yes i am driving home

a point, there is no misunderstanding, i used the word infomercial on

purpose to highlight the absurdity.

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com> wrote:

> Holy shit: Shaista, did you think the word "infographic" in the subject said

> "infomercial"?  That would explain SO MUCH.

>

> Solidarity,

> Jon

>

> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:50 AM, shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>

> wrote:

>>

>> Being defined as an arab, by Lauren, then told that arabs are actually

>> white, because this is "america" and that somehow i have to accept

>> this unfortunate "fact" is an argument that folks wants to make, in

>> defense of this data? You who are calling me white are going to tell

>> me this movement is 81% white. I am supposed to accept this data from

>> you who feels its necessary to define me? In working in groups, one

>> makes a flyer asks questions about it--asks for feedback--the kind of

>> white entitlement and smugness labelling this data "super cool

>> infomercial" in the subject heading and framing a discourse on

>> pseudo-scientific demographic data is not "cool dude." This material

>> is racist because it fails to view whiteness as an ethnic category,

>> when people of color are added up --they are the majority--for

>> purposes of democratic participation-- the white hegemonic discursive

>> regimes will have to be decentered case by case. I doubt folks of

>> color will be recruited or fooled by such data and if they do believe

>> this data, why should want to come to OWS and can you explain to me

>> why a person like harrison should be recruiting people of color. In

>> Occupy Harlem this was a big problem. Same in brooklyn. The mainstream

>> media has done a great job reflecting this white middle class "fact"

>> by their "infatuation" w white dudes, well how "revolutionary" is

>> that? (i hear the reply--well they can't help it if they love us...we

>> can't help it if we are 81% white, dude, its just the way it is in

>> america." now, I hear the capitalist say the same thing everyday in

>> mainstream--"we can't help being rich, it is just the way it is...this

>> is america!") There was a joke made earlier in the month about giving

>> non whites ONE day in the press... haahhaaa haaa! thanks so much dude

>> supercool dude, im doing cartwheels over how revolutionary that one

>> day of participation-- reminds me of the trickle down theory can we

>> get a crumb?  That is more of the problem to me than even this

>> pernicious demographic data--its the dismissal of issues relating to

>> pluralism and diversity--and by propagating such demographics without

>> challenging the census norms-- what are you trying to replicate here?

>> We are an international global city, no we don't want leadership--so

>> we have to take the politics of representation very seriously no

>> matter what color or ethnicity we are. Otherwise, claiming 81% white

>> majority here is akin to claiming an "invisible leadership" de facto

>> and by pseudo scientific data? Suddenly whiteness is overdetermined,

>> rather too visible--and the rest of us, suddenly made invisible

>> irrelevant and told to accept this? No harrison is not going out to

>> recruit people of color by telling them that our movement is 81%

>> white--that is not going to work except to alienate non white peoples.

>> People of color know we are a minority even when we are not. We act

>> like a minority even though we may be in our own majority

>> neighborhoods--(NO rob i didn't need you to look up emirical data on

>> Oakland, for example, when i said it was a predominantly black

>> city--its historically well known people of color don't need it

>> spelled out) But why do white people need it spelled out so much? Is

>> there an instance when we are NOT a minority. we are always treated as

>> a minority. You want to remind me once again how much of minority i am

>> and you want to also draw some figures and graphs too--and plaster

>> that up? Please, these kinds of demographics are done in south africa

>> to make sure everyone knows its white people leading the uprising

>> there==i pointed that out in another post. here in new york shall we

>> establish bantustans of autonomous groups as well separate and

>> alienated people of color under an 81% white majority? Is that the

>> official line? I don't buy it. Rob, you assume this data as "fact" and

>> you continue to dismiss the argument i am making about false category

>> of "white" comes out of a long tradition of slavery where black bodies

>> were 1/4th human and would not be allowed to vote or own property.

>> This ahistorical hubris of "whiteness" needs to be decentered.

>>

>> There is good news that even at Ivy League Universities some of the

>> most stuck up places on earth demented ossified economics dept. is

>> being challenged--students are just walking out of classes. Now if we

>> challenge the assumptions of census based ethnographic data as

>> representing a paradigm of 19th century empiricism and

>> pseudo-racism--most of this has already been seriously challenged in

>> anthropology and in sociology depts. please don't make me list the

>> bibliography here..Its much much deeper than "so cool dude" lets

>> play!!!" http://hpronline.org/campus/an-open-letter-to-greg-mankiw/?mid=51

>>

>> And rob--don't tell me to take it offline. this isn't a private

>> personal discussion--it really does involve mediation. I have personal

>> threats from Grim "privately" sent to me, which i shall spare at the

>> moment--and really really disturbing threats. Perhaps this is the

>> reason why i have been so "edgy" and emotional and paranoid, when

>> someone tries to silence you by threatening to turn you over to the

>> police: i am fully conscious of my urgency to address this matter you

>> want to dismiss. Every word i write is going to be twisted no its not

>> very pleasant. i do real suspicions here from threats made to me, i

>> live in an islamophobic culture--do you think i am going to be

>> silenced now? There has to be some accountability. i would rather be

>> spending my energy fighting the real fight instead of some pretentious

>> half baked hegemonic discourse -and nasty threats by some females--who

>> i have asked several times to talk yet she would like me to believe

>> that she is going to turn me over to the police? Ok so turn me

>> over---it is time for "transparency." there needs to be some

>> accountability in public commitment to safety and free speech. a space

>> for alternative politics a place to make a polemic and debate.

>>

>> When jackie called me out for using the word comintern, it just had

>> not occurred to me what the consequences could be by using that

>> word--but after being called out for it, i am better for it. I really

>> am better for it, because i do agree making clumsy statements like

>> that is unconsious. I didn't feel the need to insult her intelligence

>> and i did thank her for it.

>>

>> Right wing brain dead people can't step out their comfort zone and

>> have a transformative productive conversation--this i know--their

>> fears prevent them from seeing the person they are speaking to as full

>> subject. i do hope despite the so called white majority here, y'all

>> can sit down and understand why a person of color might be upset about

>> these demographics and not take it so personal. goddamm new york..

>>

>>

>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:36 AM, acpollack2@juno.com

>> <acpollack2@juno.com> wrote:

>> > Sorry, but Harrison explicitly insulted Shaista's intelligence and

>> > contributions to the movement in an insulting way -- so openly insulting

>> > that I can't remember the last time I read such a flame on a movement

>> > list.

>> > EVEN IF (which I don't believe) Shaista was factually wrong on the pie

>> > chart

>> > and its political implications, Harrison had to understand that such

>> > personal insults, which are completely out of character with the

>> > prevailing

>> > ethos at OWS, are also unacceptable because they could be perceived as

>> > racist.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > ---------- Original Message ----------

>> > From: rob hollander <lesrrd@gmail.com>

>> > To: september17@googlegroups.com

>> > Subject: Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the

>> > demographics of OWS,

>> > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:31:59 -0400

>> >

>> > I think people who lash out at each other are liable to say things in

>> > haste

>> > and their words are counterproductive in many regards. They do not

>> > necessarily rise to the level of racism. They may be mere expressions of

>> > human personal indignation. I'm comfortable with political correctness

>> > where

>> > it facilitates progress, not where it hurts and harms and divides,

>> > regardless of color. We gotta stay together.

>> >

>> > Shaista raised a question as to whether flaunting the data is racist.

>> > That's

>> > a legit question, and there have been some replies. (Personally, I don't

>> > believe in suppressing the truth -- that's what corporations, that have

>> > no

>> > principles, do to maximize profit. I hope we have principles and accept

>> > data

>> > as data. We should all be careful not to flaunt ourselves, otherwise we

>> > are

>> > likely to get into situations we can't handle.)

>> >

>> > Personal attacks are counterproductive to the movement. We must coexist.

>> > I

>> > suggest that all personal attacks (including all accusations of racism

>> > among

>> > us) be made privately, never again on the list.

>> >

>> > Asking for apologies is demeaning and encourages lasting wounds. Shaista

>> > and

>> > Harrison ought to smoke the peace pipe off line.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > �

>> >

>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com>

>> > wrote:

>> >>

>> >> +1 Matt

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 7:32 AM, Matthew Presto <matthew.presto@gmail.com>

>> >> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> (Sorry that should have read "As a white person who has been called out

>> >> for all sorts of legitimate things in the past as well as occasionally

>> >> now...")

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Matthew Presto

>> >> <matthew.presto@gmail.com>

>> >> wrote:

>> >>>

>> >>> I don't read emails on this listserve as often as I used to, and I

>> >>> seldom

>> >>> reply to anything, but this is a particular exception.

>> >>> Harrison, if there ever was an email not to send, that was it.

>> >>> As a white person who has been "called out" for all sorts of

>> >>> legitimate

>> >>> things in the past, here are a few points I'd like to raise, and maybe

>> >>> some

>> >>> others might benefit too:

>> >>> 1. When you're called out, it's petulant and nonsensical to attempt to

>> >>> turn things around. Oppression is not a game of "I know you are but

>> >>> what am

>> >>> I?" Also, oppression is also not a two-way street. A person of color

>> >>> calling

>> >>> you out may be many things, but it's not racism. It uncomfortably

>> >>> brings to

>> >>> mind the reactionary accusations of "reverse racism."�

>> >>> 2. Instead, listen non-defensively, even if you don't like the tone of

>> >>> how you were called out. Consider the possibility that their

>> >>> criticisms are

>> >>> valid. Recognize that as a white person living in a white supremacist

>> >>> society, you may not always be capable of realizing when you are

>> >>> perpetuating that system.

>> >>> 3. Be proactive about checking your privilege in the future. Attend

>> >>> anti-oppression workshops, such as those offered by the Anti-Racist

>> >>> Allies

>> >>> or Safer Spaces Committee. Often those who are defensive about being

>> >>> called

>> >>> out are more receptive to hearing these criticisms from fellow white

>> >>> people.

>> >>> It also takes the burden off of people of color who I imagine are

>> >>> quite

>> >>> tired of having to explain these things to whites.

>> >>> 4. This brings me to my final point because I'm already late for work.

>> >>> Can you see how the phrase "if there's anyone smarter than you on [the

>> >>> People of Color Working Group]" comes off extremely problematic? If

>> >>> not,

>> >>> reread it until you do.

>> >>>

>> >>> Matt

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Gabriel Johnson <gabjoh2@gmail.com>

>> >>> wrote:

>> >>>>

>> >>>> I'm not sure about the exact terminology, and I was going to look it

>> >>>> up

>> >>>> and quibble, but it is too late for quibbling. It's imperfect but

>> >>>> still

>> >>>> somewhat useful. (And I don't *love* the layout of the chart, looking

>> >>>> a bit

>> >>>> like a pie when it's not.) But I can't bring myself to disagree with

>> >>>> the

>> >>>> rest of your email.

>> >>>> --glj

>> >>>>

>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Harrison Schultz

>> >>>> <schuh072@gmail.com>

>> >>>> wrote:

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Rob -�Yeah, the graphic doesn't seem intended to display any

>> >>>>> relationships between the variables it's a great

>> >>>>> and�incredibly�useful way

>> >>>>> to see the toplines of the data set. �It'll be far more interesting

>> >>>>> for me

>> >>>>> to watch the shapes on this change than it is for me to read my own

>> >>>>> reports,

>> >>>>> assuming we can get the same graph for each set we collect. �I

>> >>>>> appreciate

>> >>>>> your scrutiny. �Feel free to reach out if there's anything else

>> >>>>> you'd like

>> >>>>> to know or if this data can possibly be of any use for your

>> >>>>> purposes.��

>> >>>>> Gabe and everyone else - non-random is not�synonymous with

>> >>>>> unscientific. ��

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Shaista...

>> >>>>> Thank you for bringing this project to the attention of the People

>> >>>>> of

>> >>>>> Color Working Group, if there's anyone smarter than you on that

>> >>>>> committee

>> >>>>> than I'm sure that they will utilize it for efficient strategic

>> >>>>> outreach to

>> >>>>> non-white communities. �

>> >>>>> (Thankfully) I don't think we've ever formally met, and I ordinarily

>> >>>>> don't pay any attention to anything you write since you clearly

>> >>>>> bring

>> >>>>> nothing to our collective struggle with society except for your

>> >>>>> irrational

>> >>>>> anger. �So why bother with�lip-service�about mediation? �I've been

>> >>>>> bored

>> >>>>> and�irritable�all day myself and I wouldn't mind a little practice.

>> >>>>> �

>> >>>>> However I'd rather not spend what little time I have to enjoy

>> >>>>> sitting on my

>> >>>>> ass to deal with your silly bullshit, which happens to be far more

>> >>>>> racist

>> >>>>> than any information I've produced for OWS. �So how 'bout you just

>> >>>>> keep on

>> >>>>> telling me what a racist I am over this thread, and I'll do a better

>> >>>>> job

>> >>>>> of�writing�back a sarcastic and confrontational response in a more

>> >>>>> timely

>> >>>>> manner just so you can feel like you're contributing to the

>> >>>>> movement.

>> >>>>> You call me out but now you've been called out. �But now it's your

>> >>>>> turn, so let's play!�

>> >>>>> Harrison � � � ��

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 8:06 PM, shaista husain

>> >>>>> <shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >>>>>>

>> >>>>>> Thank you Lauren, me too, i don't want to be dismissed as angry and

>> >>>>>> attacking anyone--no one is trying to be racist here and i am not

>> >>>>>> accusing anyone, just the data is troubling to me. �I do have some

>> >>>>>> issues for concern which needs constructive mediation and positive

>> >>>>>> engagement. I am deeply sorry i haven't learned how to express

>> >>>>>> myself

>> >>>>>> properly. i am learning and transorming in this process too, please

>> >>>>>> bear with me. �i will take this matter to the proper mediation so

>> >>>>>> we

>> >>>>>> can speak to each other as allies and move forward with strength

>> >>>>>> and

>> >>>>>> clarity.

>> >>>>>> peace

>> >>>>>> shaista

>> >>>>>>

>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Lauren <celliwig@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >>>>>> > Let me try to say this in a less angry way.

>> >>>>>> > - I am perfectly aware of eugenics and scientific racism. In

>> >>>>>> > fact,

>> >>>>>> > I've been involved in disability activism long enough to know the

>> >>>>>> > ins

>> >>>>>> > and outs of eugenics.

>> >>>>>> > - I am also sadly aware of the fact that a lot of america's

>> >>>>>> > population

>> >>>>>> > tends to self-define not by culture but by racial identities from

>> >>>>>> > this

>> >>>>>> > ideological basis

>> >>>>>> > - I am not defining america for you, if I could pretend that

>> >>>>>> > scientific racism hadn't left its mark on the country I would

>> >>>>>> > really

>> >>>>>> > be glad.

>> >>>>>> > - I have made no threats.

>> >

>> >

>> > --

>> > Rob Hollander

>> > Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development

>> > http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/

>> > 622 E 11, #10

>> > NYC, 10009

>> > 212-228-6152

>> >

>> >

>

>

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