From:   Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Thursday, November 03, 2011 10:41:21 AM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   SPAM-MED: Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the demographics of OWS,
 

Ok.  Well, for future reference, it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone—anyone—to understand sarcasm over the internet.  It's been a problem that has caused uncountable flamewars in uncountable numbers of internet discussion groups since the dawn of the message board.



On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:23 PM, shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:
no its my sarcasm you don't like--i don't care -yes i am driving home
a point, there is no misunderstanding, i used the word infomercial on
purpose to highlight the absurdity.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com> wrote:
> Holy shit: Shaista, did you think the word "infographic" in the subject said
> "infomercial"?  That would explain SO MUCH.
>
> Solidarity,
> Jon
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:50 AM, shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Being defined as an arab, by Lauren, then told that arabs are actually
>> white, because this is "america" and that somehow i have to accept
>> this unfortunate "fact" is an argument that folks wants to make, in
>> defense of this data? You who are calling me white are going to tell
>> me this movement is 81% white. I am supposed to accept this data from
>> you who feels its necessary to define me? In working in groups, one
>> makes a flyer asks questions about it--asks for feedback--the kind of
>> white entitlement and smugness labelling this data "super cool
>> infomercial" in the subject heading and framing a discourse on
>> pseudo-scientific demographic data is not "cool dude." This material
>> is racist because it fails to view whiteness as an ethnic category,
>> when people of color are added up --they are the majority--for
>> purposes of democratic participation-- the white hegemonic discursive
>> regimes will have to be decentered case by case. I doubt folks of
>> color will be recruited or fooled by such data and if they do believe
>> this data, why should want to come to OWS and can you explain to me
>> why a person like harrison should be recruiting people of color. In
>> Occupy Harlem this was a big problem. Same in brooklyn. The mainstream
>> media has done a great job reflecting this white middle class "fact"
>> by their "infatuation" w white dudes, well how "revolutionary" is
>> that? (i hear the reply--well they can't help it if they love us...we
>> can't help it if we are 81% white, dude, its just the way it is in
>> america." now, I hear the capitalist say the same thing everyday in
>> mainstream--"we can't help being rich, it is just the way it is...this
>> is america!") There was a joke made earlier in the month about giving
>> non whites ONE day in the press... haahhaaa haaa! thanks so much dude
>> supercool dude, im doing cartwheels over how revolutionary that one
>> day of participation-- reminds me of the trickle down theory can we
>> get a crumb?  That is more of the problem to me than even this
>> pernicious demographic data--its the dismissal of issues relating to
>> pluralism and diversity--and by propagating such demographics without
>> challenging the census norms-- what are you trying to replicate here?
>> We are an international global city, no we don't want leadership--so
>> we have to take the politics of representation very seriously no
>> matter what color or ethnicity we are. Otherwise, claiming 81% white
>> majority here is akin to claiming an "invisible leadership" de facto
>> and by pseudo scientific data? Suddenly whiteness is overdetermined,
>> rather too visible--and the rest of us, suddenly made invisible
>> irrelevant and told to accept this? No harrison is not going out to
>> recruit people of color by telling them that our movement is 81%
>> white--that is not going to work except to alienate non white peoples.
>> People of color know we are a minority even when we are not. We act
>> like a minority even though we may be in our own majority
>> neighborhoods--(NO rob i didn't need you to look up emirical data on
>> Oakland, for example, when i said it was a predominantly black
>> city--its historically well known people of color don't need it
>> spelled out) But why do white people need it spelled out so much? Is
>> there an instance when we are NOT a minority. we are always treated as
>> a minority. You want to remind me once again how much of minority i am
>> and you want to also draw some figures and graphs too--and plaster
>> that up? Please, these kinds of demographics are done in south africa
>> to make sure everyone knows its white people leading the uprising
>> there==i pointed that out in another post. here in new york shall we
>> establish bantustans of autonomous groups as well separate and
>> alienated people of color under an 81% white majority? Is that the
>> official line? I don't buy it. Rob, you assume this data as "fact" and
>> you continue to dismiss the argument i am making about false category
>> of "white" comes out of a long tradition of slavery where black bodies
>> were 1/4th human and would not be allowed to vote or own property.
>> This ahistorical hubris of "whiteness" needs to be decentered.
>>
>> There is good news that even at Ivy League Universities some of the
>> most stuck up places on earth demented ossified economics dept. is
>> being challenged--students are just walking out of classes. Now if we
>> challenge the assumptions of census based ethnographic data as
>> representing a paradigm of 19th century empiricism and
>> pseudo-racism--most of this has already been seriously challenged in
>> anthropology and in sociology depts. please don't make me list the
>> bibliography here..Its much much deeper than "so cool dude" lets
>> play!!!" http://hpronline.org/campus/an-open-letter-to-greg-mankiw/?mid=51
>>
>> And rob--don't tell me to take it offline. this isn't a private
>> personal discussion--it really does involve mediation. I have personal
>> threats from Grim "privately" sent to me, which i shall spare at the
>> moment--and really really disturbing threats. Perhaps this is the
>> reason why i have been so "edgy" and emotional and paranoid, when
>> someone tries to silence you by threatening to turn you over to the
>> police: i am fully conscious of my urgency to address this matter you
>> want to dismiss. Every word i write is going to be twisted no its not
>> very pleasant. i do real suspicions here from threats made to me, i
>> live in an islamophobic culture--do you think i am going to be
>> silenced now? There has to be some accountability. i would rather be
>> spending my energy fighting the real fight instead of some pretentious
>> half baked hegemonic discourse -and nasty threats by some females--who
>> i have asked several times to talk yet she would like me to believe
>> that she is going to turn me over to the police? Ok so turn me
>> over---it is time for "transparency." there needs to be some
>> accountability in public commitment to safety and free speech. a space
>> for alternative politics a place to make a polemic and debate.
>>
>> When jackie called me out for using the word comintern, it just had
>> not occurred to me what the consequences could be by using that
>> word--but after being called out for it, i am better for it. I really
>> am better for it, because i do agree making clumsy statements like
>> that is unconsious. I didn't feel the need to insult her intelligence
>> and i did thank her for it.
>>
>> Right wing brain dead people can't step out their comfort zone and
>> have a transformative productive conversation--this i know--their
>> fears prevent them from seeing the person they are speaking to as full
>> subject. i do hope despite the so called white majority here, y'all
>> can sit down and understand why a person of color might be upset about
>> these demographics and not take it so personal. goddamm new york..
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:36 AM, acpollack2@juno.com
>> <acpollack2@juno.com> wrote:
>> > Sorry, but Harrison explicitly insulted Shaista's intelligence and
>> > contributions to the movement in an insulting way -- so openly insulting
>> > that I can't remember the last time I read such a flame on a movement
>> > list.
>> > EVEN IF (which I don't believe) Shaista was factually wrong on the pie
>> > chart
>> > and its political implications, Harrison had to understand that such
>> > personal insults, which are completely out of character with the
>> > prevailing
>> > ethos at OWS, are also unacceptable because they could be perceived as
>> > racist.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------- Original Message ----------
>> > From: rob hollander <lesrrd@gmail.com>
>> > To: september17@googlegroups.com
>> > Subject: Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the
>> > demographics of OWS,
>> > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:31:59 -0400
>> >
>> > I think people who lash out at each other are liable to say things in
>> > haste
>> > and their words are counterproductive in many regards. They do not
>> > necessarily rise to the level of racism. They may be mere expressions of
>> > human personal indignation. I'm comfortable with political correctness
>> > where
>> > it facilitates progress, not where it hurts and harms and divides,
>> > regardless of color. We gotta stay together.
>> >
>> > Shaista raised a question as to whether flaunting the data is racist.
>> > That's
>> > a legit question, and there have been some replies. (Personally, I don't
>> > believe in suppressing the truth -- that's what corporations, that have
>> > no
>> > principles, do to maximize profit. I hope we have principles and accept
>> > data
>> > as data. We should all be careful not to flaunt ourselves, otherwise we
>> > are
>> > likely to get into situations we can't handle.)
>> >
>> > Personal attacks are counterproductive to the movement. We must coexist.
>> > I
>> > suggest that all personal attacks (including all accusations of racism
>> > among
>> > us) be made privately, never again on the list.
>> >
>> > Asking for apologies is demeaning and encourages lasting wounds. Shaista
>> > and
>> > Harrison ought to smoke the peace pipe off line.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > �
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> +1 Matt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 7:32 AM, Matthew Presto <matthew.presto@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> (Sorry that should have read "As a white person who has been called out
>> >> for all sorts of legitimate things in the past as well as occasionally
>> >> now...")
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Matthew Presto
>> >> <matthew.presto@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't read emails on this listserve as often as I used to, and I
>> >>> seldom
>> >>> reply to anything, but this is a particular exception.
>> >>> Harrison, if there ever was an email not to send, that was it.
>> >>> As a white person who has been "called out" for all sorts of
>> >>> legitimate
>> >>> things in the past, here are a few points I'd like to raise, and maybe
>> >>> some
>> >>> others might benefit too:
>> >>> 1. When you're called out, it's petulant and nonsensical to attempt to
>> >>> turn things around. Oppression is not a game of "I know you are but
>> >>> what am
>> >>> I?" Also, oppression is also not a two-way street. A person of color
>> >>> calling
>> >>> you out may be many things, but it's not racism. It uncomfortably
>> >>> brings to
>> >>> mind the reactionary accusations of "reverse racism."�
>> >>> 2. Instead, listen non-defensively, even if you don't like the tone of
>> >>> how you were called out. Consider the possibility that their
>> >>> criticisms are
>> >>> valid. Recognize that as a white person living in a white supremacist
>> >>> society, you may not always be capable of realizing when you are
>> >>> perpetuating that system.
>> >>> 3. Be proactive about checking your privilege in the future. Attend
>> >>> anti-oppression workshops, such as those offered by the Anti-Racist
>> >>> Allies
>> >>> or Safer Spaces Committee. Often those who are defensive about being
>> >>> called
>> >>> out are more receptive to hearing these criticisms from fellow white
>> >>> people.
>> >>> It also takes the burden off of people of color who I imagine are
>> >>> quite
>> >>> tired of having to explain these things to whites.
>> >>> 4. This brings me to my final point because I'm already late for work.
>> >>> Can you see how the phrase "if there's anyone smarter than you on [the
>> >>> People of Color Working Group]" comes off extremely problematic? If
>> >>> not,
>> >>> reread it until you do.
>> >>>
>> >>> Matt
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Gabriel Johnson <gabjoh2@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm not sure about the exact terminology, and I was going to look it
>> >>>> up
>> >>>> and quibble, but it is too late for quibbling. It's imperfect but
>> >>>> still
>> >>>> somewhat useful. (And I don't *love* the layout of the chart, looking
>> >>>> a bit
>> >>>> like a pie when it's not.) But I can't bring myself to disagree with
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> rest of your email.
>> >>>> --glj
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Harrison Schultz
>> >>>> <schuh072@gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Rob -�Yeah, the graphic doesn't seem intended to display any
>> >>>>> relationships between the variables it's a great
>> >>>>> and�incredibly�useful way
>> >>>>> to see the toplines of the data set. �It'll be far more interesting
>> >>>>> for me
>> >>>>> to watch the shapes on this change than it is for me to read my own
>> >>>>> reports,
>> >>>>> assuming we can get the same graph for each set we collect. �I
>> >>>>> appreciate
>> >>>>> your scrutiny. �Feel free to reach out if there's anything else
>> >>>>> you'd like
>> >>>>> to know or if this data can possibly be of any use for your
>> >>>>> purposes.��
>> >>>>> Gabe and everyone else - non-random is not�synonymous with
>> >>>>> unscientific. ��
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Shaista...
>> >>>>> Thank you for bringing this project to the attention of the People
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>>> Color Working Group, if there's anyone smarter than you on that
>> >>>>> committee
>> >>>>> than I'm sure that they will utilize it for efficient strategic
>> >>>>> outreach to
>> >>>>> non-white communities. �
>> >>>>> (Thankfully) I don't think we've ever formally met, and I ordinarily
>> >>>>> don't pay any attention to anything you write since you clearly
>> >>>>> bring
>> >>>>> nothing to our collective struggle with society except for your
>> >>>>> irrational
>> >>>>> anger. �So why bother with�lip-service�about mediation? �I've been
>> >>>>> bored
>> >>>>> and�irritable�all day myself and I wouldn't mind a little practice.
>> >>>>> �
>> >>>>> However I'd rather not spend what little time I have to enjoy
>> >>>>> sitting on my
>> >>>>> ass to deal with your silly bullshit, which happens to be far more
>> >>>>> racist
>> >>>>> than any information I've produced for OWS. �So how 'bout you just
>> >>>>> keep on
>> >>>>> telling me what a racist I am over this thread, and I'll do a better
>> >>>>> job
>> >>>>> of�writing�back a sarcastic and confrontational response in a more
>> >>>>> timely
>> >>>>> manner just so you can feel like you're contributing to the
>> >>>>> movement.
>> >>>>> You call me out but now you've been called out. �But now it's your
>> >>>>> turn, so let's play!�
>> >>>>> Harrison � � � ��
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 8:06 PM, shaista husain
>> >>>>> <shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thank you Lauren, me too, i don't want to be dismissed as angry and
>> >>>>>> attacking anyone--no one is trying to be racist here and i am not
>> >>>>>> accusing anyone, just the data is troubling to me. �I do have some
>> >>>>>> issues for concern which needs constructive mediation and positive
>> >>>>>> engagement. I am deeply sorry i haven't learned how to express
>> >>>>>> myself
>> >>>>>> properly. i am learning and transorming in this process too, please
>> >>>>>> bear with me. �i will take this matter to the proper mediation so
>> >>>>>> we
>> >>>>>> can speak to each other as allies and move forward with strength
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> clarity.
>> >>>>>> peace
>> >>>>>> shaista
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Lauren <celliwig@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> > Let me try to say this in a less angry way.
>> >>>>>> > - I am perfectly aware of eugenics and scientific racism. In
>> >>>>>> > fact,
>> >>>>>> > I've been involved in disability activism long enough to know the
>> >>>>>> > ins
>> >>>>>> > and outs of eugenics.
>> >>>>>> > - I am also sadly aware of the fact that a lot of america's
>> >>>>>> > population
>> >>>>>> > tends to self-define not by culture but by racial identities from
>> >>>>>> > this
>> >>>>>> > ideological basis
>> >>>>>> > - I am not defining america for you, if I could pretend that
>> >>>>>> > scientific racism hadn't left its mark on the country I would
>> >>>>>> > really
>> >>>>>> > be glad.
>> >>>>>> > - I have made no threats.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Rob Hollander
>> > Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
>> > http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/
>> > 622 E 11, #10
>> > NYC, 10009
>> > 212-228-6152
>> >
>> >
>
>

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