From:   shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Thursday, November 03, 2011 11:03:19 AM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the demographics of OWS,
 

well-its not sarcasm-this flyer is an advertisement for "fast company"

as you can read the logo--

 

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok.  Well, for future reference, it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone—anyone—to

> understand sarcasm over the internet.  It's been a problem that has caused

> uncountable flamewars in uncountable numbers of internet discussion groups

> since the dawn of the message board.

>

>

> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:23 PM, shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com>

> wrote:

>>

>> no its my sarcasm you don't like--i don't care -yes i am driving home

>> a point, there is no misunderstanding, i used the word infomercial on

>> purpose to highlight the absurdity.

>>

>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com>

>> wrote:

>> > Holy shit: Shaista, did you think the word "infographic" in the subject

>> > said

>> > "infomercial"?  That would explain SO MUCH.

>> >

>> > Solidarity,

>> > Jon

>> >

>> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:50 AM, shaista husain

>> > <shaistahusain@gmail.com>

>> > wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Being defined as an arab, by Lauren, then told that arabs are actually

>> >> white, because this is "america" and that somehow i have to accept

>> >> this unfortunate "fact" is an argument that folks wants to make, in

>> >> defense of this data? You who are calling me white are going to tell

>> >> me this movement is 81% white. I am supposed to accept this data from

>> >> you who feels its necessary to define me? In working in groups, one

>> >> makes a flyer asks questions about it--asks for feedback--the kind of

>> >> white entitlement and smugness labelling this data "super cool

>> >> infomercial" in the subject heading and framing a discourse on

>> >> pseudo-scientific demographic data is not "cool dude." This material

>> >> is racist because it fails to view whiteness as an ethnic category,

>> >> when people of color are added up --they are the majority--for

>> >> purposes of democratic participation-- the white hegemonic discursive

>> >> regimes will have to be decentered case by case. I doubt folks of

>> >> color will be recruited or fooled by such data and if they do believe

>> >> this data, why should want to come to OWS and can you explain to me

>> >> why a person like harrison should be recruiting people of color. In

>> >> Occupy Harlem this was a big problem. Same in brooklyn. The mainstream

>> >> media has done a great job reflecting this white middle class "fact"

>> >> by their "infatuation" w white dudes, well how "revolutionary" is

>> >> that? (i hear the reply--well they can't help it if they love us...we

>> >> can't help it if we are 81% white, dude, its just the way it is in

>> >> america." now, I hear the capitalist say the same thing everyday in

>> >> mainstream--"we can't help being rich, it is just the way it is...this

>> >> is america!") There was a joke made earlier in the month about giving

>> >> non whites ONE day in the press... haahhaaa haaa! thanks so much dude

>> >> supercool dude, im doing cartwheels over how revolutionary that one

>> >> day of participation-- reminds me of the trickle down theory can we

>> >> get a crumb?  That is more of the problem to me than even this

>> >> pernicious demographic data--its the dismissal of issues relating to

>> >> pluralism and diversity--and by propagating such demographics without

>> >> challenging the census norms-- what are you trying to replicate here?

>> >> We are an international global city, no we don't want leadership--so

>> >> we have to take the politics of representation very seriously no

>> >> matter what color or ethnicity we are. Otherwise, claiming 81% white

>> >> majority here is akin to claiming an "invisible leadership" de facto

>> >> and by pseudo scientific data? Suddenly whiteness is overdetermined,

>> >> rather too visible--and the rest of us, suddenly made invisible

>> >> irrelevant and told to accept this? No harrison is not going out to

>> >> recruit people of color by telling them that our movement is 81%

>> >> white--that is not going to work except to alienate non white peoples.

>> >> People of color know we are a minority even when we are not. We act

>> >> like a minority even though we may be in our own majority

>> >> neighborhoods--(NO rob i didn't need you to look up emirical data on

>> >> Oakland, for example, when i said it was a predominantly black

>> >> city--its historically well known people of color don't need it

>> >> spelled out) But why do white people need it spelled out so much? Is

>> >> there an instance when we are NOT a minority. we are always treated as

>> >> a minority. You want to remind me once again how much of minority i am

>> >> and you want to also draw some figures and graphs too--and plaster

>> >> that up? Please, these kinds of demographics are done in south africa

>> >> to make sure everyone knows its white people leading the uprising

>> >> there==i pointed that out in another post. here in new york shall we

>> >> establish bantustans of autonomous groups as well separate and

>> >> alienated people of color under an 81% white majority? Is that the

>> >> official line? I don't buy it. Rob, you assume this data as "fact" and

>> >> you continue to dismiss the argument i am making about false category

>> >> of "white" comes out of a long tradition of slavery where black bodies

>> >> were 1/4th human and would not be allowed to vote or own property.

>> >> This ahistorical hubris of "whiteness" needs to be decentered.

>> >>

>> >> There is good news that even at Ivy League Universities some of the

>> >> most stuck up places on earth demented ossified economics dept. is

>> >> being challenged--students are just walking out of classes. Now if we

>> >> challenge the assumptions of census based ethnographic data as

>> >> representing a paradigm of 19th century empiricism and

>> >> pseudo-racism--most of this has already been seriously challenged in

>> >> anthropology and in sociology depts. please don't make me list the

>> >> bibliography here..Its much much deeper than "so cool dude" lets

>> >> play!!!"

>> >> http://hpronline.org/campus/an-open-letter-to-greg-mankiw/?mid=51

>> >>

>> >> And rob--don't tell me to take it offline. this isn't a private

>> >> personal discussion--it really does involve mediation. I have personal

>> >> threats from Grim "privately" sent to me, which i shall spare at the

>> >> moment--and really really disturbing threats. Perhaps this is the

>> >> reason why i have been so "edgy" and emotional and paranoid, when

>> >> someone tries to silence you by threatening to turn you over to the

>> >> police: i am fully conscious of my urgency to address this matter you

>> >> want to dismiss. Every word i write is going to be twisted no its not

>> >> very pleasant. i do real suspicions here from threats made to me, i

>> >> live in an islamophobic culture--do you think i am going to be

>> >> silenced now? There has to be some accountability. i would rather be

>> >> spending my energy fighting the real fight instead of some pretentious

>> >> half baked hegemonic discourse -and nasty threats by some females--who

>> >> i have asked several times to talk yet she would like me to believe

>> >> that she is going to turn me over to the police? Ok so turn me

>> >> over---it is time for "transparency." there needs to be some

>> >> accountability in public commitment to safety and free speech. a space

>> >> for alternative politics a place to make a polemic and debate.

>> >>

>> >> When jackie called me out for using the word comintern, it just had

>> >> not occurred to me what the consequences could be by using that

>> >> word--but after being called out for it, i am better for it. I really

>> >> am better for it, because i do agree making clumsy statements like

>> >> that is unconsious. I didn't feel the need to insult her intelligence

>> >> and i did thank her for it.

>> >>

>> >> Right wing brain dead people can't step out their comfort zone and

>> >> have a transformative productive conversation--this i know--their

>> >> fears prevent them from seeing the person they are speaking to as full

>> >> subject. i do hope despite the so called white majority here, y'all

>> >> can sit down and understand why a person of color might be upset about

>> >> these demographics and not take it so personal. goddamm new york..

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:36 AM, acpollack2@juno.com

>> >> <acpollack2@juno.com> wrote:

>> >> > Sorry, but Harrison explicitly insulted Shaista's intelligence and

>> >> > contributions to the movement in an insulting way -- so openly

>> >> > insulting

>> >> > that I can't remember the last time I read such a flame on a movement

>> >> > list.

>> >> > EVEN IF (which I don't believe) Shaista was factually wrong on the

>> >> > pie

>> >> > chart

>> >> > and its political implications, Harrison had to understand that such

>> >> > personal insults, which are completely out of character with the

>> >> > prevailing

>> >> > ethos at OWS, are also unacceptable because they could be perceived

>> >> > as

>> >> > racist.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > ---------- Original Message ----------

>> >> > From: rob hollander <lesrrd@gmail.com>

>> >> > To: september17@googlegroups.com

>> >> > Subject: Re: [september17discuss] Re: way cool infographic on the

>> >> > demographics of OWS,

>> >> > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:31:59 -0400

>> >> >

>> >> > I think people who lash out at each other are liable to say things in

>> >> > haste

>> >> > and their words are counterproductive in many regards. They do not

>> >> > necessarily rise to the level of racism. They may be mere expressions

>> >> > of

>> >> > human personal indignation. I'm comfortable with political

>> >> > correctness

>> >> > where

>> >> > it facilitates progress, not where it hurts and harms and divides,

>> >> > regardless of color. We gotta stay together.

>> >> >

>> >> > Shaista raised a question as to whether flaunting the data is racist.

>> >> > That's

>> >> > a legit question, and there have been some replies. (Personally, I

>> >> > don't

>> >> > believe in suppressing the truth -- that's what corporations, that

>> >> > have

>> >> > no

>> >> > principles, do to maximize profit. I hope we have principles and

>> >> > accept

>> >> > data

>> >> > as data. We should all be careful not to flaunt ourselves, otherwise

>> >> > we

>> >> > are

>> >> > likely to get into situations we can't handle.)

>> >> >

>> >> > Personal attacks are counterproductive to the movement. We must

>> >> > coexist.

>> >> > I

>> >> > suggest that all personal attacks (including all accusations of

>> >> > racism

>> >> > among

>> >> > us) be made privately, never again on the list.

>> >> >

>> >> > Asking for apologies is demeaning and encourages lasting wounds.

>> >> > Shaista

>> >> > and

>> >> > Harrison ought to smoke the peace pipe off line.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > �

>> >> >

>> >> > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com>

>> >> > wrote:

>> >> >>

>> >> >> +1 Matt

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >> >>

>> >> >> On Nov 3, 2011, at 7:32 AM, Matthew Presto

>> >> >> <matthew.presto@gmail.com>

>> >> >> wrote:

>> >> >>

>> >> >> (Sorry that should have read "As a white person who has been called

>> >> >> out

>> >> >> for all sorts of legitimate things in the past as well as

>> >> >> occasionally

>> >> >> now...")

>> >> >>

>> >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Matthew Presto

>> >> >> <matthew.presto@gmail.com>

>> >> >> wrote:

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> I don't read emails on this listserve as often as I used to, and I

>> >> >>> seldom

>> >> >>> reply to anything, but this is a particular exception.

>> >> >>> Harrison, if there ever was an email not to send, that was it.

>> >> >>> As a white person who has been "called out" for all sorts of

>> >> >>> legitimate

>> >> >>> things in the past, here are a few points I'd like to raise, and

>> >> >>> maybe

>> >> >>> some

>> >> >>> others might benefit too:

>> >> >>> 1. When you're called out, it's petulant and nonsensical to attempt

>> >> >>> to

>> >> >>> turn things around. Oppression is not a game of "I know you are but

>> >> >>> what am

>> >> >>> I?" Also, oppression is also not a two-way street. A person of

>> >> >>> color

>> >> >>> calling

>> >> >>> you out may be many things, but it's not racism. It uncomfortably

>> >> >>> brings to

>> >> >>> mind the reactionary accusations of "reverse racism."�

>> >> >>> 2. Instead, listen non-defensively, even if you don't like the tone

>> >> >>> of

>> >> >>> how you were called out. Consider the possibility that their

>> >> >>> criticisms are

>> >> >>> valid. Recognize that as a white person living in a white

>> >> >>> supremacist

>> >> >>> society, you may not always be capable of realizing when you are

>> >> >>> perpetuating that system.

>> >> >>> 3. Be proactive about checking your privilege in the future. Attend

>> >> >>> anti-oppression workshops, such as those offered by the Anti-Racist

>> >> >>> Allies

>> >> >>> or Safer Spaces Committee. Often those who are defensive about

>> >> >>> being

>> >> >>> called

>> >> >>> out are more receptive to hearing these criticisms from fellow

>> >> >>> white

>> >> >>> people.

>> >> >>> It also takes the burden off of people of color who I imagine are

>> >> >>> quite

>> >> >>> tired of having to explain these things to whites.

>> >> >>> 4. This brings me to my final point because I'm already late for

>> >> >>> work.

>> >> >>> Can you see how the phrase "if there's anyone smarter than you on

>> >> >>> [the

>> >> >>> People of Color Working Group]" comes off extremely problematic? If

>> >> >>> not,

>> >> >>> reread it until you do.

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> Matt

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>>

>> >> >>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Gabriel Johnson

>> >> >>> <gabjoh2@gmail.com>

>> >> >>> wrote:

>> >> >>>>

>> >> >>>> I'm not sure about the exact terminology, and I was going to look

>> >> >>>> it

>> >> >>>> up

>> >> >>>> and quibble, but it is too late for quibbling. It's imperfect but

>> >> >>>> still

>> >> >>>> somewhat useful. (And I don't *love* the layout of the chart,

>> >> >>>> looking

>> >> >>>> a bit

>> >> >>>> like a pie when it's not.) But I can't bring myself to disagree

>> >> >>>> with

>> >> >>>> the

>> >> >>>> rest of your email.

>> >> >>>> --glj

>> >> >>>>

>> >> >>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Harrison Schultz

>> >> >>>> <schuh072@gmail.com>

>> >> >>>> wrote:

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>> Rob -�Yeah, the graphic doesn't seem intended to display any

>> >> >>>>> relationships between the variables it's a great

>> >> >>>>> and�incredibly�useful way

>> >> >>>>> to see the toplines of the data set. �It'll be far more

>> >> >>>>> interesting

>> >> >>>>> for me

>> >> >>>>> to watch the shapes on this change than it is for me to read my

>> >> >>>>> own

>> >> >>>>> reports,

>> >> >>>>> assuming we can get the same graph for each set we collect. �I

>> >> >>>>> appreciate

>> >> >>>>> your scrutiny. �Feel free to reach out if there's anything else

>> >> >>>>> you'd like

>> >> >>>>> to know or if this data can possibly be of any use for your

>> >> >>>>> purposes.��

>> >> >>>>> Gabe and everyone else - non-random is not�synonymous with

>> >> >>>>> unscientific. ��

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>> Shaista...

>> >> >>>>> Thank you for bringing this project to the attention of the

>> >> >>>>> People

>> >> >>>>> of

>> >> >>>>> Color Working Group, if there's anyone smarter than you on that

>> >> >>>>> committee

>> >> >>>>> than I'm sure that they will utilize it for efficient strategic

>> >> >>>>> outreach to

>> >> >>>>> non-white communities. �

>> >> >>>>> (Thankfully) I don't think we've ever formally met, and I

>> >> >>>>> ordinarily

>> >> >>>>> don't pay any attention to anything you write since you clearly

>> >> >>>>> bring

>> >> >>>>> nothing to our collective struggle with society except for your

>> >> >>>>> irrational

>> >> >>>>> anger. �So why bother with�lip-service�about mediation? �I've

>> >> >>>>> been

>> >> >>>>> bored

>> >> >>>>> and�irritable�all day myself and I wouldn't mind a little

>> >> >>>>> practice.

>> >> >>>>> �

>> >> >>>>> However I'd rather not spend what little time I have to enjoy

>> >> >>>>> sitting on my

>> >> >>>>> ass to deal with your silly bullshit, which happens to be far

>> >> >>>>> more

>> >> >>>>> racist

>> >> >>>>> than any information I've produced for OWS. �So how 'bout you

>> >> >>>>> just

>> >> >>>>> keep on

>> >> >>>>> telling me what a racist I am over this thread, and I'll do a

>> >> >>>>> better

>> >> >>>>> job

>> >> >>>>> of�writing�back a sarcastic and confrontational response in a

>> >> >>>>> more

>> >> >>>>> timely

>> >> >>>>> manner just so you can feel like you're contributing to the

>> >> >>>>> movement.

>> >> >>>>> You call me out but now you've been called out. �But now it's

>> >> >>>>> your

>> >> >>>>> turn, so let's play!�

>> >> >>>>> Harrison � � � ��

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>>

>> >> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 8:06 PM, shaista husain

>> >> >>>>> <shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> >>>>>>

>> >> >>>>>> Thank you Lauren, me too, i don't want to be dismissed as angry

>> >> >>>>>> and

>> >> >>>>>> attacking anyone--no one is trying to be racist here and i am

>> >> >>>>>> not

>> >> >>>>>> accusing anyone, just the data is troubling to me. �I do have

>> >> >>>>>> some

>> >> >>>>>> issues for concern which needs constructive mediation and

>> >> >>>>>> positive

>> >> >>>>>> engagement. I am deeply sorry i haven't learned how to express

>> >> >>>>>> myself

>> >> >>>>>> properly. i am learning and transorming in this process too,

>> >> >>>>>> please

>> >> >>>>>> bear with me. �i will take this matter to the proper mediation

>> >> >>>>>> so

>> >> >>>>>> we

>> >> >>>>>> can speak to each other as allies and move forward with strength

>> >> >>>>>> and

>> >> >>>>>> clarity.

>> >> >>>>>> peace

>> >> >>>>>> shaista

>> >> >>>>>>

>> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Lauren <celliwig@gmail.com>

>> >> >>>>>> wrote:

>> >> >>>>>> > Let me try to say this in a less angry way.

>> >> >>>>>> > - I am perfectly aware of eugenics and scientific racism. In

>> >> >>>>>> > fact,

>> >> >>>>>> > I've been involved in disability activism long enough to know

>> >> >>>>>> > the

>> >> >>>>>> > ins

>> >> >>>>>> > and outs of eugenics.

>> >> >>>>>> > - I am also sadly aware of the fact that a lot of america's

>> >> >>>>>> > population

>> >> >>>>>> > tends to self-define not by culture but by racial identities

>> >> >>>>>> > from

>> >> >>>>>> > this

>> >> >>>>>> > ideological basis

>> >> >>>>>> > - I am not defining america for you, if I could pretend that

>> >> >>>>>> > scientific racism hadn't left its mark on the country I would

>> >> >>>>>> > really

>> >> >>>>>> > be glad.

>> >> >>>>>> > - I have made no threats.

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > --

>> >> > Rob Hollander

>> >> > Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development

>> >> > http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/

>> >> > 622 E 11, #10

>> >> > NYC, 10009

>> >> > 212-228-6152

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >

>> >

>

>

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