From:   rob hollander <lesrrd@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Sunday, November 06, 2011 6:26:10 PM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   SPAM-MED: Re: [september17discuss] Re: Greek PM Papandreou resigns, forms coalition with conservatives, continues austerity
 

Sorry -- I was referring to the Pinochet/post Pinochet period of recovery through privatization. I wasn't, of course, referring to the current recession. The only countries that haven't been hurt by the current recession are places like Norway, where the economy is carefuly regulated with the support of it people, and Australia, where the banks are more regulated to prevent things like subprime lending and overleveraging.

On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 8:15 PM, shaista husain <shaistahusain@gmail.com> wrote:
Chile has not recovered from anything, it has a huge protest movement
in its 37th week against privatization led by students against the
privatization of education, so it has not "recovered" and we can learn
even more from Argentina "Almost overnight in late 2001, Argentina
went from having one of the strongest economies in South America to
one of the weakest. During this economic crash, the financial system
collapsed like a house of cards and banks shut their doors. Faced with
such immediate economic strife and unemployment, many Argentines
banded together to create a new society out of the wreckage of the
old. Poverty, homelessness, and unemployment were countered with
barter systems, factory occupations, communally-run kitchens, and
alternative currency. Neighborhood assemblies provided solidarity,
support and vital spaces for discussion in communities across the
country. Ongoing protests kicked out five presidents in two weeks, and
the movements that emerged from this period transformed the social and
political fabric of Argentina." :
http://enoughcampaign.org/2011/10/14/from-argentina-to-wall-street/

On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:53 PM, rob hollander <lesrrd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Argentina paid its IMF debts, and Chile recovered with the "neoliberal
> miracle" of privatization. I think Charles is right, capital flight will
> bring the country down faster, but the consequent civil unrest will keep a
> lot of tourists away despite the devaluation of their currency. How many
> unemployed workers can subsist on fishing? It's not Iceland.
>
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Doug Singsen <dougsingsen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Exactly. Well said. Didn't Chile and/or Argentina do basically the same
>> thing by defaulting on IMF loans, and it worked out well for them?
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Charles <chcreinhardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, I have been under the impression that Greece's biggest export is
>>> tourism, so a devalued drachma would make more people come to its
>>> islands, resorts and hostels. Sure there would be capital flight, but
>>> the government could engage in expansionary monetary policy to make
>>> its new debts more manageable. Look at what happened with Argentina
>>> and Iceland. I'm not saying it would be a walk in the park, but they
>>> would hit rock bottom faster and maybe that would paradoxically lead
>>> to less suffering in aggregate once growth begins again, unburdened by
>>> huge interest payments.
>>>
>>> On Nov 6, 6:21 pm, Doug Singsen <dougsing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Can you expand on that? Why would leaving the Eurozone result in
>>> > greater
>>> > austerity and a collapse of Greek banking?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:14 PM, rob hollander <les...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > The inflation option -- like QE2 -- can be a disaster in all
>>> > > directions.
>>> > > When currency deflates, large investors abandon it for commodities,
>>> > > which
>>> > > can cause shortages and inflated prices, like the inflated food
>>> > > prices that
>>> > > led to the Arab Spring, directly as a result of QE2.
>>> >
>>> > > To be fair, leaving the Eurozone could throw Greece into much greater
>>> > > austerity and a collapse of their banking, which could result in a
>>> > > lot of
>>> > > hardship for the people of Greece. Greece does not export much, so
>>> > > reconstructing its economy could take a long time. Leaving the
>>> > > Eurozone is
>>> > > kind of uncharted seas both for them and for the Eurozone.
>>> >
>>> > > Either way, Greece is in for a rocky ride of civil unrest.
>>> >
>>> > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Doug Singsen
>>> > > <dougsing...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >> This writer recognizes that austerity will not work, but his
>>> > >> proposed
>>> > >> solution is hardly any better. First, Davies believes that despite
>>> > >> the
>>> > >> problems, Greece should still slash social spending and fire
>>> > >> workers,
>>> > >> continuing the austerity agenda.
>>> >
>>> > >> The eurozone is often accused of lacking a strategic plan, but that
>>> > >> is
>>> > >>> not true. It does have a plan, and a very clear one. The plan,
>>> > >>> which has
>>> > >>> been imposed by the creditor nations led by Germany, requires the
>>> > >>> debtor
>>> > >>> nations to take two major actions, *both of which will be
>>> > >>> beneficial in
>>> > >>> the long term*. First, they need to balance their budgets on the
>>> > >>> timetable agreed in recent summits. Second they need to introduce
>>> > >>> major
>>> > >>> reforms to their economic structure, notably involving labour
>>> > >>> market
>>> > >>> flexibility and privatisation.
>>> >
>>> > >> Second, his only solution is that Germany should "grow faster, and
>>> > >> accept
>>> > >> higher domestic inflation for a while, in order to ease the process
>>> > >> of
>>> > >> adjustment." But this would do virtually nothing to rescue Greece!
>>> > >> It is
>>> > >> far too weak to relieve Greece's crushing debt. And third, as Davies
>>> > >> himself admits, "In practice, Germany shows no sign of accepting
>>> > >> this, but
>>> > >> it is the best solution available."
>>> >
>>> > >> Is this what Greek workers are supposed to pin their hopes on?
>>> > >> Instead,
>>> > >> Greek workers have a much more effective choice, and one that is
>>> > >> actually
>>> > >> within their control: force Greece to renounce the debt and leave
>>> > >> the
>>> > >> Eurozone. Even though Davies recognizes the problem, he is unable to
>>> > >> offer
>>> > >> a real solution because that would require breaking from the
>>> > >> established
>>> > >> economic power structure, which he seems incapable of conceiving of,
>>> > >> to the
>>> > >> point that he doesn't even mention this possibility in his analysis.
>>> > >> Further, he looks at this situation entirely from the perspective of
>>> > >> policy-makers rather than from that of Greek workers. He never
>>> > >> actually
>>> > >> mentions workers in his article or acknowledge what the cost of the
>>> > >> crisis
>>> > >> will be in human terms. So I would say that Davies's support for
>>> > >> capitalism
>>> > >> does prevent him from imagining an alternate course for Greece.
>>> >
>>> > >> Doug
>>> >
>>> > >> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 5:10 PM, shaista husain
>>> > >> <shaistahus...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >>> Thank you Doug, but even the most prolific defenders of capital and
>>> > >>> writers are speaking about a possible imminent demise of the
>>> > >>> Eurozone,
>>> > >>> Greece only happens to be the most rebellious at the moment
>>> > >>> (Portugal,
>>> > >>> Spain, France are next) the other nations will be in the same
>>> > >>> situation shortly. Here is an article by an ex Goldman Sack-head
>>> > >>> who
>>> > >>> writes, "None of the austere budgetary plans which have been
>>> > >>> announced
>>> > >>> during 2011 will achieve their fiscal targets in 2012 in the
>>> > >>> context
>>> > >>> of the recessions which will probably be encountered by many
>>> > >>> countries, and that includes France. There is no such thing as
>>> > >>> “expansionary austerity”, certainly not in countries which cannot
>>> > >>> devalue or reduce their long term interest rates. These countries
>>> > >>> are
>>> > >>> now chasing their own tails.'.."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >>> >>>http://blogs.ft.com/gavyndavies/2011/11/06/the-eurozone-decouples-fro...
>>> > >>> So wonder what this all entails?
>>> >
>>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Doug Singsen
>>> > >>> <dougsing...@gmail.com>
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >>> >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/06/papandreou-greek-leaders-...
>>> >
>>> > >>> > This was probably inevitable. All the Greek pro-capitalist
>>> > >>> > parties
>>> > >>> have now
>>> > >>> > merged, leaving the anticapitalist parties of the far left as the
>>> > >>> > only
>>> > >>> > political parties outside the "grand coalition" in favor of
>>> > >>> > austerity.
>>> > >>> The
>>> > >>> > anticapitalist parties have been key leaders in the fight against
>>> > >>> austerity
>>> > >>> > and have now achieved unprecedented levels of popular support as
>>> > >>> > a
>>> > >>> result.
>>> > >>> > Papandreou's party, PASOK, is supposedly "socialist" but in fact
>>> > >>> > has
>>> > >>> > defended the interests of the bankers and speculators over those
>>> > >>> > of
>>> > >>> Greek
>>> > >>> > workers (much like the Democrats in the US). The whole point of
>>> > >>> slashing
>>> > >>> > social services and laying off workers is to cut government
>>> > >>> > expenses
>>> > >>> so they
>>> > >>> > can pay back more of their loans to banks and speculators, whose
>>> > >>> > high
>>> > >>> > interest rates helped drive up the Greek debt in the first place.
>>> > >>> > (The
>>> > >>> other
>>> > >>> > major factors in the creation of massive Greek debt were the
>>> > >>> > inability
>>> > >>> of
>>> > >>> > Greek industry to compete with Germany and other European powers,
>>> > >>> > the
>>> > >>> lack
>>> > >>> > of monetary flexibility caused by Greece's entry into the
>>> > >>> > Eurozone,
>>> > >>> and the
>>> > >>> > economic collapse of 2008, which was also caused by the banks and
>>> > >>> > speculators. The supposed "laziness" and "overspending" of the
>>> > >>> > Greek
>>> > >>> > government that the US media is always talking about are not the
>>> > >>> > real
>>> > >>> > economic causes of Greece's crisis, but rather are designed to
>>> > >>> > distract
>>> > >>> > attention away from the real causes, which all go back to the
>>> > >>> interests of
>>> > >>> > the banks, international corporations, and speculators.) Unions,
>>> > >>> > most
>>> > >>> of
>>> > >>> > which had previously supported PASOK, are now in the process of
>>> > >>> breaking
>>> > >>> > with PASOK and allying with the anticapitalist left.
>>> >
>>> > >>> > Doug
>>> >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Rob Hollander
>>> > > Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
>>> > >http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/
>>> > > 622 E 11, #10
>>> > > NYC, 10009
>>> > > 212-228-6152
>
>
>
> --
> Rob Hollander
> Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
> http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/
> 622 E 11, #10
> NYC, 10009
> 212-228-6152
>
>



--
Rob Hollander
Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
http://savethelowereastside.blogspot.com/
622 E 11, #10
NYC, 10009
212-228-6152

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