From:   Andy Anderson <>
Sent time:   Friday, November 11, 2011 10:27:01 PM
Subject:   Re: [september17discuss] Re: Open Letter to the Occupy Movement

I will agree you are not alone. What I would like to know is, at what point is fighting back going to win you or your agenda anything. A dead thug is a dead thug. No one blames the police, no one cares. That is how it would "play" if one of the occupiers of the "community center" was killed. They win again. If we are to make a case to the public, we have to play by their rules. They need to see our innocence to open their hearts to change. If you honestly want to change the world, it takes sacrifice. Take your lumps, take the shame they will dish you and the abuse that isn't deserved. Wear it like a badge, because in the end the public will back us. But the people won't tolerate being terrorized. It doesn't work. We cannot try guerrilla tactics and wait it out, this isn't Vietnam. The Man isn't going to lose his patience and leave, this is his home field. We will be crushed and the people will rejoice that the terrorists were vanquished. This is not a game. Real people are suffering because of our common enemy. If we are to save ourselves and those suffering, then we stay nonviolent and every time one of us is filmed being abused, they lose, and more people wake up and together we will change the world.  

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Martin <> wrote:
        Hey Folks,
                      I agree that a serious discussion about the
implications of "diversity of tactics" is important. I strongly agree
that there are certain tactics that can't possibly have a place in a
progressive social movement. However, I think enforcing pacifism  on
everyone, regardless of the circumstances, isn't okay. I have
tremendous respect for pacifists past and present that advance social
justice.  Facing police violence and refusing to defend yourself is
extremely brave!  But, it's a personal choice. In the face of police
brutality  people should not be condemned or called an agent
provocateur  for defending themselves or their friends! Just because
an individual is a pacifist shouldn't mean they can deprive others of
the right to defend themselves or their friends! Of course police
brutality should be filmed and documented, but if people defend their
friends that shouldn't be condemned.
                     Secondly, I take issue with some of the
discussion about the Oakland general strike. I really don't think
it's  for us to condemn Oakland militants who attempted to expropriate
a foreclosed homeless shelter and turn it into a community center! The
talk of bad press it generated really misses the point. Of course the
media is going to put a ring wing spin on the Oakland general strike.
We're not trying to win over the media, we're trying to win over
working people! Case in point is a conversation I had with my
roommate, a politically inactive DC 37 rank and filer. When I
explained how advanced Oakland is in the occupy struggle she wasn't
initially  impressed:  (Loosely paraphrasing)

Roommate:  "Okay, so they had a general strike in Oakland and shut
down the port. What exactly do they want?"

Me: "Well, they're trying to create a free and open society. For
example: they took over an empty foreclosed building and turned it
into a   community center briefly but the cops took it back."

Roommate: "Ahh man! That's awesome! They should be doing more stuff
like that. Too bad the cops took it back".
                      Finally, I take issue with the way some people
seem to blame the militants, who expropriated the building,  for
police violence.  The blame for police violence rest squarely on the
Police and Mayor of Oakland. Period.  I find it bizarre that people
would think otherwise.  The Oakland police have a long history of
violence and terrorism and it's not because anarchists provoke them!
It's because of a brutal system of oppression. I understand this is a
contentious issue and I really wanna keep things comradely. I'm not
trying to troll the list serv, I just want to express an opinion that
isn't getting heard. I know I'm not alone on this.
                           In Solidarity,