From:   rob hollander <>
Sent time:   Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:51:51 PM
Subject:   Re: Re: Re: [september17discuss] Article: "The Leaders of the Allegedly Leaderless Movement"

I think there may be a misunderstanding about what "they" believe. I'm talking about the "they" who, in one of those conspiracy movies, claims that all the passengers in the 9/11 crashes were flown alive by a decoy plane, to some remote location where they are all being hidden permanently.

If by "they" you mean Bush, Cheney and Powell made a phony case for WMDs, then I'm with you. I don't call that a conspiracy "theory" and I can't understand how anyone would conflate the two or lump them together.

People I know who believe the former story are profoundly anti-political. They don't get involved in social justice movements and for a reason: they view movements as either part of the conspiracy itself or stooges being used by the conspirators. Maybe I haven't met your conspiracy theorists. But it is consistent with their beliefs to shun movements, since their conspiracy is pervasive.

I don't for a moment believe that you accept 80% of what they say. Maybe 30%. People in OWS probably believe in more than 30% of what the Tea Partiers believe. Or maybe it's the 20% that you don't accept that makes a big difference.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Bruce Wagner <> wrote:


I couldn't disagree more with your description and assessment of what "they" believe, etc.

I promote activism and I believe about 80% of what "they" believe. 
Lumping people into categories and labelling them, is not usually  productive, nor accurate.


On Nov 13, 2011 10:38 AM, "rob hollander" <> wrote:

Rob Hollander
Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
622 E 11, #10
NYC, 10009