From:   Bruce Wagner <>
Sent time:   Monday, November 14, 2011 5:04:51 AM
Subject:   Re: Re: Re: [september17discuss] Article: "The Leaders of the Allegedly Leaderless Movement"

Rob, You're still making generalizations that are false, in my world.   I believe BOTH of your examples are probably true.   Yet I am an OWS activist. 

I also agree with Jem that the term "conspiracy theories" is widely used -- especially by the 1% and their pawns -- to discredit investigation into the truth.

It is an absolute fact, for example, that 911 was a conspiracy.  It was a mass murder.  No one denies that.  The only question:  Who really did it?    Thus, they call certain investigations, "conspiracy theories"...  instead of simply "suspects" or "theories".

On Nov 13, 2011 4:51 PM, "rob hollander" <> wrote:
I think there may be a misunderstanding about what "they" believe. I'm talking about the "they" who, in one of those conspiracy movies, claims that all the passengers in the 9/11 crashes were flown alive by a decoy plane, to some remote location where they are all being hidden permanently.

If by "they" you mean Bush, Cheney and Powell made a phony case for WMDs, then I'm with you. I don't call that a conspiracy "theory" and I can't understand how anyone would conflate the two or lump them together.

People I know who believe the former story are profoundly anti-political. They don't get involved in social justice movements and for a reason: they view movements as either part of the conspiracy itself or stooges being used by the conspirators. Maybe I haven't met your conspiracy theorists. But it is consistent with their beliefs to shun movements, since their conspiracy is pervasive.

I don't for a moment believe that you accept 80% of what they say. Maybe 30%. People in OWS probably believe in more than 30% of what the Tea Partiers believe. Or maybe it's the 20% that you don't accept that makes a big difference.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Bruce Wagner <> wrote:


I couldn't disagree more with your description and assessment of what "they" believe, etc.

I promote activism and I believe about 80% of what "they" believe. 
Lumping people into categories and labelling them, is not usually  productive, nor accurate.


On Nov 13, 2011 10:38 AM, "rob hollander" <> wrote:

Rob Hollander
Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
622 E 11, #10
NYC, 10009