From:   gail zawacki <witsendnj@gmail.com>
Sent time:   Wednesday, October 19, 2011 7:01:09 AM
To:   september17@googlegroups.com
Subject:   Re: [september17discuss] MoveOn Execs Now Official Spokespeople For OWS, According to MSM Execs
 

Thanks, Sebastian - signed with the following comment!

I was a huge Obama supporter but it's now obvious to me that we do not have a real democracy in this country, and the media is pure propaganda. If MoveOn members (I'm one) want to join OWS (I did) that's fine, but as an organization that represents the pseudo-electoral politics as usual, MoveOn has no role in OWS.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Sebastian Fernandez Giraldo <sfernan@ncsu.edu> wrote:
Sorry I haven't been following the conversation but I thought you guys might want to know about this it was posted to reddit http://signon.org/sign/moveon-please-stop.fb1?source=s.fb&r_by=1390101. Obviously it's a matter of personal opinion. Just thought I'd share.
Full disclosure: I signed it. "I'm not for or against you guys but I it's true that your involvement could keep a lot of people who are against you from coming out and joining. Sorry but we are not your tea party. "


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Doug Singsen <dougsingsen@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not saying we should be hostile. In fact, I specifically said that we shouldn't be. What I said was that we should clearly differentiate ourselves from MoveOn. And yes, humans can change. But we're not talking about an individual human here, we're talking about an organization. And organizations have identity and inertia. They're created to serve a purpose, and that purpose has a definitive effect on their viewpoint and practices. I think it's very unlikely that MoveOn will ever be anything but a liberal wing of the Democratic Party. If people grow disenchanted with that model, they're more likely to leave MoveOn than to change its fundamental politics.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Jon Good <therealjongood@gmail.com> wrote:
Those forces are not immutable, Doug. Human beings have opinions, and they can be changed. WE are starting to change them.

The success of our movement has provided evidence to people that what they believed to be impossible (a belief they held partially because those in power want us to think it's impossible) can actually happen.  

Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't be careful.  But I disagree that we should be immediately hostile.

Solidarity,

Jon


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Doug Singsen <dougsingsen@gmail.com> wrote:
Supporting MoveOn is inconsistent with the idea that we don't support the Democrats, since MoveOn is joined at the hip to the Democrats. I don't think we should start attacking MoveOn, but we need to distinguish our agenda from theirs so that people outside the movement understand that we are pushing for much bigger changes than MoveOn wants, and that we don't support the Democrats. If MoveOn still wants to support us once we've made that clear, great, but if we don't make that clear, then MoveOn will be able to present their agenda as representing the Occupy movement, thereby co-opting it and blunting its transformative potential. And we need to be realistic about what MoveOn represents: they are for all intents and purposes a support group for the supposedly "progressive" wing of the Democratic Party. But that "progressive" wing, which still sees Obama as its ally, is in fact not progressive at all, but supports Wall Street to the hilt.

Doug







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