From:   Lycophidion <>
Sent time:   Saturday, October 22, 2011 6:28:49 PM
To:   september17 <>
Subject:   [september17discuss] Re: For a long view...

You are thinking too small, Rob. Again, I repeat, the movement is

independent of and transcends the Zuccotti Park encampment. The

MOVEMENT -- mostly non-camping trade unions -- mobilized 20,000 people

on October 5. The MOVEMENT successfully defended the encampment a week

ago, and then mobilized against the banks. The MOVEMENT has staged

occupations in, what? --150 U.S. cities? The MOVEMENT has arguably

led autoworkers at Ford to reject a giveback contract, railroad

workers to threaten a strike forcing Obama to impose the NRLA and put

the fear of God into Sotheby's, possibly leading to a prompt

settlement for the locked-out Teamsters. In the coming weeks, there

will be further massive rallies by labor and other sectors that see

themselves as a part of the OWS movement. This movement, I believe,

will continue regardless of whether we remain in Zuccotti or not.


It's absolutely false that "If it's "on our own terms" then it means

"we give up because we can't handle the cold." A big part of the art

of revolutionary politics is to choose the time and place, the

terrain, the conditions, for struggle that are most favorable to your



It is true that Zuccotti remains a symbol. But, this can work against

us, just as well as for us. Following a series of victories, such as

Sotheby's, and big marches, an orderly withdrawal will preserve the

symbolism of the encampment. And, again, it can be resumed at our

convenience. Police repression of a small, demoralized, exhausted and

isolated group of campers may well destroy the symbolism of the

encampment and demoralize us and our allies.


And what you are essentially suggesting is that folks become martyrs.

But, first, a useless act of martyrdom is far worse than a dignified

withdrawal, and second, we don't need martyrs. We need healthy

activists with high morale.


Finally, all I suggested was drawing up a contingency plan, which

hurts no one.




On Oct 22, 5:00 pm, rob hollander <> wrote:

> If it's "on our own terms" then it means "we give up because we can't handle

> the cold." Most of the public will be sympathetic, but critics will target

> occupiers derisively as a bunch of warm-weather partiers.


> But if the mayor evicts the occupation, the *he*'s the target. A movement

> needs attention to grow and a target (witness Tony 'Baloney'). You don't

> want to be sidelined, especially through this election.










> --

> Rob Hollander

> Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development

> 622 E 11, #10

> NYC, 10009

> 212-228-6152