From:   Andy Anderson <>
Sent time:   Saturday, October 22, 2011 7:14:34 PM
Subject:   Re: [september17discuss] Re: For a long view...

Movement or not, you cannot abandon those that have adopted the park as their pemanent homes without addressing the issue. Talking of symbols is OK here, but to make it work, you have to deal with what you've created. I'm not even suggesting that you house them. I am suggesting you get a working group out there, canvassing and assessing their needs so you can get your proposal past the GA. They had a home before OWS, they can go elsewhere, but you can't just ignore them like they aren't real people.
Andy Anderson

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Lycophidion <> wrote:
You are thinking too small, Rob. Again, I repeat, the movement is
independent of and transcends the Zuccotti Park encampment. The
MOVEMENT -- mostly non-camping trade unions -- mobilized 20,000 people
on October 5. The MOVEMENT successfully defended the encampment a week
ago, and then mobilized against the banks. The MOVEMENT has staged
occupations  in, what? --150 U.S. cities? The MOVEMENT has arguably
led autoworkers at Ford to reject a giveback contract, railroad
workers to threaten a strike forcing Obama to impose the NRLA and put
the fear of God into Sotheby's, possibly leading to a prompt
settlement for the locked-out Teamsters. In the coming weeks, there
will be further massive rallies by labor and other sectors that see
themselves as a part of the OWS movement. This movement, I believe,
will continue regardless of whether we remain in Zuccotti or not.

It's absolutely false that "If it's "on our own terms" then it means
"we give up because we can't handle the cold." A big part of the art
of revolutionary politics is to choose the time and place, the
terrain, the conditions, for struggle that are most favorable to your

It is true that Zuccotti remains a symbol. But, this can work against
us, just as well as for us. Following a series of victories, such as
Sotheby's, and big marches, an orderly withdrawal will preserve the
symbolism of the encampment. And, again, it can be resumed at our
convenience. Police repression of a small, demoralized, exhausted and
isolated group of campers may well destroy the symbolism of the
encampment and demoralize us and our allies.

And what you are essentially suggesting is that folks become martyrs.
But, first, a useless act of martyrdom is far worse than a dignified
withdrawal, and second, we don't need martyrs. We need healthy
activists with high morale.

Finally, all I suggested was drawing up a contingency plan, which
hurts no one.

On Oct 22, 5:00 pm, rob hollander <> wrote:
> If it's "on our own terms" then it means "we give up because we can't handle
> the cold." Most of the public will be sympathetic, but critics will target
> occupiers derisively as a bunch of warm-weather partiers.
> But if the mayor evicts the occupation, the *he*'s the target. A movement
> needs attention to grow and a target (witness Tony 'Baloney'). You don't
> want to be sidelined, especially through this election.
> --
> Rob Hollander
> Lower East Side Residents for Responsible Development
> 622 E 11, #10
> NYC, 10009
> 212-228-6152