From:   Lauren <>
Sent time:   Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:26:07 PM
To:   september17 <>
Subject:   SPAM-MED: [september17discuss] Re: Five demands and banks

I'd like to interject on this.


Yes, it's going to be self-defeating for now because the majority of

the people has no idea what capitalism even means, doesn't know the

alternatives. How many people know about worker's cooperatives? How

many people know about participatory economics?


Big money has a much smaller role in british elections: do they seem

that much better? Neoliberal capitalism was still the core of their

economy last I checked, and their economy is still getting run by

London banks that are imploding from their creative use of pure maths

as source of moneymaking schemes (aka. If the economic center remains

in the hands of the few, no amount of electoral reform will give power

to the people. We don't need the tea party. We are on the edge of a

terrible crisis. French and German banks have played as dirty as the

american and british banks and most of their wealth is an enormous

sham, with so many derivatives sold on Greek, Spanish and Italian debt

that the moment one defaults (Greece is a matter of when, not if), the

largest banks in Europe, and the largest bank in the world, period,

are going to be completely wrecked.


We can show the way. We can be the example: we can help people form

cooperatives, link people, form collectives. Yes it could be seen as

mission creep and no it's not demand material, it's call to action

material. The french army during the revolution was said to be a

roving school that spread literacy like nothing else had: we can do

the same for skills, trades, knowledge. People are joining us: it's

moved beyond NYC, the number of popular assemblies in America is

growing as we speak.


And sorry if I got carried away.


On Sep 22, 7:25 pm, wrote:

>  I think 'abolish capitalism' would be self defeating as demand.  A majority of the 99% has no interest in abolishing capitalism, and such a statement would be used to marginalize us.  In the long run I would like to abolish capitalism, but the world cannot wait for that before more pressing problems get solved.  Let's take the legs out of giant coporations first, so we can get people back to work, get people healthcare, have a functioning democracy and in general turn the conversation the world is having from more and more austerity to a sustainable world.  If you really want to try to abolish capitalism right now, I would suggest joining the Tea Party and pushing capitalism toward as many terrible crisis that you can make, so that revolution comes.  But I have no faith that revolution would do anything accept make arms dealers and the violent richer than ever. 


> I know that many of you think that working within the system at all is a mistake, and I can't blame you, but my goal is for real people to take control of the system and to slowly change it so that it helps everyone.  Consensus takes a long time to build.  Let's not try to take short cuts to our ultimate goal of a human race generous enough that it can live together without greed and violence.




> In Solidarity, John McGloin