From:   grimwomyn <>
Sent time:   Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:54:22 AM
Subject:   SPAM-MED: Re: Re: Re: [september17discuss] Five demands from the NYCGA: how to link the struggle for democracy to the struggle for social and economic justice

How about:

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Winter Siroco <> wrote:
I agree, perhaps it could be 

  • To end the Wall Street dictatorship and the aristocratic rights to tax exemption,
  • Creating a real participatory democracy,
  •  Ending the oppression of all marginalized groups, and
  •  Promoting peace, solidarity, and economic justice.

    On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Jon Good <> wrote:
    "Making the banks, corporations and the rich pay"  is a bit vengeful and I think too open-ended.  Besides, we don't want them just to pay, we want to change the system that allows them to amass such huge wealth and influence in the first place.

    The way banks work is that ordinary people put their savings into banks*, and the banks take our money and sling it around and invest it in all kinds of corporate and capital projects to help big corporations squeeze out the little guys and leverage their money to invade further facets of our lives (schools, hospitals, prisons, etc).

    I think the first goal should read something closer to "end the control of government and the economy by banks, corporations, and the rich."  or "end the control of our lives by the crony system between big business and big government."  I'm aware that the phrase "big government" is a loaded term that conjures up visions of black helicopters and wasteful spending among the Tea Party and Republicans, but the thing is that there are black helicopters and wasteful spending, it's just that the welfare queens and are actually corporations and not poor single women.  So I think that's not too bad of a way to bridge the gap.

    *It's really sick when you think of it as a co-operative where everybody pools all our wealth in one place, and then the bankers use it to amass huge wealth for themselves and make us powerless There's all kinds of parts of the finance world where the super rich form what are basically co-ops for their exclusive benefit (a good example is the Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation:

    In solidarity,


    On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 6:26 AM, Jackie DiSalvo <> wrote:

    No, no the  original is better


    Making the banks, corporations, and the rich pay


    From: [] On Behalf Of Winter Siroco
    Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 1:48 AM
    Subject: Re: Re: Re: [september17discuss] Five demands from the NYCGA: how to link the struggle for democracy to the struggle for social and economic justice


    Yes, the first needs reworking.


    What about:


    Our goals are:

    ·   To end the Wall Street bending of the law, and the aristocratic right to tax exemption,

    ·   Creating a real participatory democracy,

    ·   Ending the oppression of all marginalized groups, and

    ·   Promoting peace, solidarity, and economic justice.





    On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 12:13 AM, gail zawacki <> wrote:

    Making the banks, corporations, and the rich pay, sounds so stupid and greedy! DON'T let that happen.

    Corporations do not have children, they do not have souls, the exist for short-term profit and they control our government. People don't have a voice - it is drowned out by corporate messaging, lobbyists on their behalf, campaign contributions.


    On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 12:05 AM, <> wrote:

     I can get behind this.  Can we all agree on a message soon?  Our soundbite world is unable to comprehend complexity.  Many keep calling us stupid because we think too much.  lol



    On 09/24/11, Winter Siroco<> wrote:

    After a lot of talking and consulting some of us agree with 4 points that everybody may endorse. Of course, everybody should seriously think about specific strategies to accomplish these goals.   



    On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 10:59 PM, <> wrote:




    On 09/24/11, Winter Siroco<> wrote:

    Yes, simple, broad and not demands but goals. 


    On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Willie Osterweil <> wrote:

    I think if we use demands at all we need to be focused on simple, clear demands that will enlarge our ranks.

    The house/senate wont pass anything even remotely looking like a change in wealth distribution, the Obama administration bends over backwards to appease the bi-partisan banks, the Supreme Court declares that proof of innocence is insufficient cause for a stay of execution, and the media will always distort and misrepresent, either through malice or incompetence.

    Thus, any sort of wonky policy demand that speaks only to the already politically active is unproductive and serves to marginalize and entrench the protest into a pre-exiting middle-class protest community. The government will give us nothing, we need to build the numbers to take...

    The only positive function of demands is solidarity and recruitment: the simpler, broader and more universal, the better.


    On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Winter Siroco <> wrote:

    ...true,, what would be your positive contribution or rearangement of priorities?

    be constructive.



    On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Willie Osterweil <> wrote:

    And nothing gets the blood of the people stirring like a call to reinstate Glass-Steagall.  Yup, I can see it now, the media suddenly exploding with coverage, the ramparts filling with the oppressed and underrepresented: "They've called for the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall! Quickly, comrades, to arms! To arms! For Glass Steagall!"


    On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 8:58 AM, diane sare <> wrote:

    Glass-Steagall would bust up the "too big to fail" banks, let the speculators rot, as they should, and protect the small savings and loan banks, which means people's savings, mortgages, there would be hope for pension funds, etc.  In other words, Glass-Steagall would bankrupt Wall Street -- it's not the whole recovery, but it IS the first step to protecting the PEOPLE, and making it possible to think long-term about radical things we used to do, like water management, rail building etc.

    On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 7:52 PM, Snafu <> wrote:

    Hi all,

    I apologize for being off-list and off-the-streets for a few days, but I was lucky enough to become a father on September 17!

    I personally believe that the obstination of some members of the NYCGA on not having demands has proved disastrous and resulted in a PR debacle. Invariably, almost all mainstream media accounts of the protests note that the demonstrators have confused ideas and are probably motivated by merely ideological motives.

    Further, this refusal of having demands has nothing to do with the current movements in the Middle East, Spain and Greece all of which have clear and loud demands. In the case of Arab countries and Middle Eastern autocracies the demand cannot be but one (remove the dictator). In Greece and Spain the situation is more complex but the movements there have been able to develop specific analyses and requests. In particular the Joint Economics Working Group of Syntagma Square and Puerta del Sol have drafted a document ( that lists a specific set of demands, such as the request of nationalizing the banks, withdrawing the EU/IMF Memorandum imposed on Greece, make the accounting records transparent, and so forth.

    As I have previously suggested, the three simple demands that the NYCGA should have raised in the call to Occupy Wall Street should have been:

    1) Reintroduction of the Glass-Steagall Act,
    a law regulating the bank system that separated investment banks from commercial banks. This law, originally approved in 1933 and signed into law by FDR has been repealed in 1999. As Wikipedia simply states it, "Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms."–Steagall_Act

    Immediate introduction of a Tobin Tax or Robin Hood Tax on all financial transactions both at a national and international level. On a national level, it would be sufficient for Congress to pass it. On an international level, the IMF could subordinate loans to countries in debt to the introduction of a Tobin Tax instead of requiring massive privatizations as it ordinarily does through the notorious structural adjustment programs. In Europe, Angela Merkel and Nicholas Sarkozy have officialized their support to the introduction of such tax in the EU about three weeks ago. Last June over 1,000 economist submitted a letter by 1,000 economists to the G20 last April that explains why the idea of a global Robin Hood Tax has “come of age.” (, a web site run by a British NGO that explains in very simple terms how it works and how much revenue it could generate. The NGO also has a Facebook page.

    3) Raise taxes on qualified dividends and long-term capital gains by pairing the long-term capital gains tax rate (which applies to financial assets held for more than a year) to the ordinary income tax rates. At the moment, thanks to the Tax Reconciliation Act signed by Bush into law in 2006 and extended by the Obama administration to 2012 and beyond, capital gains cannot be taxed more than 20% whereas income tax is taxed up to 35%. This means that if your wage falls for example in the $35,000-83,000 bracket  your income tax is 25% whereas if you make 1, 10, or 100 million dollars on the stock market your pay 20% only. Even Warren Buffett says that this system is openly unjust and that the current taxation system is profoundly unbalanced and skewed towards financial profit. (

    These three proposals are far from revolutionary yet they could begin raising specific questions and help bring a variety of subjects into the conversation. The notion that a movement is defined by its demands is ridiculous.
    A social movement is much more than a set of demands yet demands help those who are not on your side understand who you are and where you come from.

    Two other critical points that should be discussed in the GA are the public funding of political campaigns and the two-party system. A paramount political objective should be to get corporations to stop funding political candidates. You cannot have real democracy with the current system of fundraising. A truly democratic system would give each citizen a tax bonus of the SAME AMOUNT and enable each one of us to decide how to allocate such money. A truly democratic society should also not rely on forms of political representation based on a majoritarian (first-past-the-post) electoral system. If we are the 99% of the country, then we ought to be able to convince the rest of the nation that the 99% counts in fact nothing. And corporate funding and the two-party system should be the two main targets of a campaign for real democracy.

    To sum up, the question of the redistribution of wealth and democratic control over the financial system cannot be disconnected from the question of political representation. Organizing a movement that fights "against representative politics" does not mean in my opinion to fight against *any* form of representation, but certainly against the current system of representation. We are over 6 billions on this planet. Thinking that each individual should have the right to decide on every issue in every part of the world at all times may sound fascinating but it is simply unrealistic and unrealizable. Whether we like it or not, we constantly delegate to others the understanding of issues and execution of tasks we simply do not have the time to understand and care about. (The worldwide professionalization of national armies and the advanced specialization of knowledge in scientific and academic research are just two notable cases in point).

    Thus the question is not how to abolish authority and representation per se but how to produce forms of representation that are truly representative, renewable and non-ossified. The NYCGA could be such a body, once we live behind the rather childish notion that demands define us and by defining us trap us in some blind alley from which we'll be unable to move forward.



    Diane Sare
    cell: 201-220-7731